wptski

I said I wasn't going to hash this over again but your theory would be right if this was 1985. The Aisin TF 80 has TCC lockup on 4th, 5th and 6th gears. So, obviously you're going to get TCC lockup before you reach a constant speed.

 

 

Give it a rest already!

Sorry, Ford Shop Manuals only show a Aisin AW21, FNR5 or 6F35 going back all the way.

I didn't try it b/c it's pointless. It's obvious what will happen, as _10579 attests.

Okay. In Post #134 you state that it happens before you reach a constant speed, correct? If so, the TCC wouldn't be locking up or shouldn't then.

It was answered by me about 2 pages back.

Okay, I see that now. I actually replied to that post where they disconnected the plug at the rear end, the hard way to do it.

There is a so-called "hoot" sound first heard from the rear of the '09 4WD Escape, TSB to reprogram didn't help. later said to be in 4WD, FWD, I4 and V6 from drive chain in transaxle. The replaced chain only works for a short and the noise returns. Owner's are being told it's normal now. Pulling the fuse for the 4WD module stops the sound. Go figure...

My dealer did, and the noise went away.

At last, an answer. Thanks.

These types of AWD systems were never designed to be 'disengaged' at driving speed ( maybe when parking or when emergency/parking brakes are engaged). I am not surprised if the disengagement feature was forcefully incorperated into the 3.5L sports model only to make it more appealing for some customers ( like wptski, lol) and possibly EPA requirements to save at most 1 mpg under certain driving conditions.

What??? Is that a typo??? Is supposed to engaged/disengaged when the system detects the need or lack of. They do wind tunnel test and add things for less than a 1mpg gain. Look at the front edge of the rear wheel well on a >09' Escape some time. The little rubber piece was added for very little mpg gain but it was added never the less.

There's no question. If you disable the AWD by pulling the fuse the rumble can't happen. It only occurs in AWD cars.

That doesn't answer the question, did you try that? It would prove/disprove the engage/TCC claim.

No, a constant speed hasn't been reached. This is under light acceleration we've beaten that facet of it to death earlier in the discussion, so there's no point in rehashing it. You made your point clear previously.

Okay, I just reread a bit of this thread. I do remember it now. Bet nobody has tried the simple test of pulling the fuse on the 4WD/AWD module to see if the problem persists?

Read the whole thread. The problem was identified over a year ago. It's a result of the rear differential disengaging at the same time the TCC is locking up. This causes the monetary shudder. It's a software issue. I was assured that a report was made to the engineers in Dearborn and that a fix would probably be found but that it would take time b/c any change like this had to be submitted and approved by the EPA. Well, here we are, a year later. Nothing has happened and this story was apparently a steaming pile of BS. If this really was the case, why would Ford continue to spend thousands replacing expensive driveline parts in other customers' cars when they supposedly know what the issue is? Dealers would inform owners that no repairs would be done pending a TSB.

If this thread description is accurate or 1500rpm@40mph which sounds like a constant speed has been reached. By that time the rearend has disengaged. It happens well below that speed.

just wondering if the Traction control is turned off, will that save any MPG on dry pavement?

Not for TC but if there was a simple way to disable the AWD, it would.

the dealer seems pretty confident that this will fix the problem. only time will tell i suppose..

Huh! That will defeat your 4WD/AWD rearend ATC unit. If that stops your problem, you need a new rearend, they aren't servicable.

Update #2:

 

Dealer had my vehicle for a week. The tech working on it was in school (I hope FORD school and not some high school kid doing my work ) which is why it took longer.

 

The svc mgr said a new rear driveshaft was installed and the problem persisted, so the next test in line that Ford had them do was "unplug the rear axle". (SHEESH these new cars have a ton of electronics. Lot different than my 89 k-1500 that I just got rid of). I don't even know what unplugging the rear axle does but regardless, doing that made the noise go away (or so they say.. time will tell).

 

So, they are giving me back the car to use while they order a new rear axle. I would have thought that those axles are like a CV, no? I know i dont have a Dana 60 under there :hysterical2: but regardless, they are now changing the rear axle hoping that will work. I will post back when I take it in again, probably should be taking the car back in sometime mid next week.

That's the hard way! Just pull the fuse to disable the 4WD/AWD module.

I took delivery of my 2011 Ford Fusion SEL AWD V6. It had 200 miles on it because it was driven to the NY dealership I use (Schultz Ford in Bardonia NY if anyone lives in the area....they are the BEST. Paul G and Joe R. are fantastic).

 

So, on my second day of local and highway and running errands and work, I've got 306 miles. How's the mileage? I also heard the AWD isn't activated on dry roads, but kicks in on snowy and wet/icy roads. Is it as good as other AWD systems? My area can get 2" of snow to up to 2 feet depending on the storm.

You heard wrong. Your AWD/4WD kicks in every time you leave from a dead stop no matter what the driving conditions are.

Ford's plans are to start building those rearends in house instead of purchasing them from Dana. They will be building them at Ford's Sterling Heights, MI Gear and Axle Plant. That project has been going on for some time but I have no idea when the launch date is.

So then what's your point? How is pulsing the brake pressure related to AWD and torque transfer?

Nothing at all. It was your Tag Team partner that was trying to explain a open differtential working with TC and I incorrectly stated that it pulsed the brakes which it doesn't.

Actually Ford thinks AWD means a 4WD with TC.

Does it say that a piston can move in and out of a caliper 16 times per second?

It says what I stated.

If your trying to make the point that I said "pulsing the brakes" instead of "pulsing the brake pressure"? I did and that was incorrect.

Well again you completely missed my point. Yes I know how an ABS system works. But pulsing in the ABS actuator does not equal pulsing at the brake surface. When you use the ABS, you feel pulsing in the pedal, but do you feel pulsing in the actual braking of the vehicle?

 

The reaction time in the brake fluid between the solenoid and the piston (including flexing in the rubber brake lines), the friction and rollback in the piston, the friction in the calipers as they slide over the pins all results in a smoothing of those pulses such that the actual torque reaction at the wheel is not a pulse, but a smooth, continues braking torque. That makes it very easy to create a reaction through the differential which shifts drive torque to the other side.

Why don't you read this Wikipedia page on ABS systems and you can always challenge the author:My link. It states that a ABS system can release/apply braking pressure up to 16 times per second.

Just because you're pulsing a solenoid, doesn't mean the brake pads themselves are pulsing.

Apparently you've never felt the ABS system kick in while applying the brakes!

The following from '07 Fusion Workshop Manual.

Anti-Lock Control

The anti-lock brake system (ABS) module receives wheel speed readings from each wheel speed sensor and processes this information to determine if an ABS event is necessary. The wheel speed sensor electrically senses each tooth of the wheel speed sensor indicators as it passes through the wheel speed sensor magnetic field.

The active wheel speed sensor generates a signal that is sent to the ABS module. The wheel speed sensor circuitry connects to the ABS module through 2 wires and a connector at each wheel speed sensor. When the ignition is turned to the RUN position, the ABS module carries out a self-test by sending a reference voltage to all of the wheel speed sensors through their circuitry to determine if they are functional.

The ABS module continuously monitors and compares the rotational speed of each wheel and when it detects an impending wheel lock, modulates brake pressure to the appropriate brake caliper. This is accomplished by triggering the hydraulic control unit (HCU) to open and close the appropriate solenoid valves. Once the affected wheel returns to normal speed, the ABS module returns the solenoid valves to their normal position, and normal (base) braking resumes.

The HCU has additional internal solenoid valves incorporated to enable control modulation of the wheel brake pressures.

The ABS module is self-monitoring. When the ignition switch is turned to the RUN position, the ABS module does a preliminary electrical check, and at above 20 km/h (12 mph) the pump motor is turned ON for approximately 1/2 second. Also, during all phases of operation the ABS module, with the vehicle in motion, checks for correct operation of the wheel speed sensors. Any malfunction of the ABS causees the ABS to shut off. Normal power assisted braking, however, remains.

Traction Control System — All Wheel Drive (AWD)

The ABS module communicates with the powertrain control module (PCM) to assist with traction control. When the drive wheels lose traction and begin to spin, with vehicle speed under 100 km/h (62 mph), the ABS module requests the PCM to reduce engine torque while simultaneously applying and releasing the appropriate brake caliper(s) to maintain traction. The PCM accomplishes this by minor incremental timing changes and fewer fuel injector pulses until the ABS module ends the request. The request ends when the driven wheel speed returns to the desired speed. After the vehicle speed exceeds 100 km/h (62 mph), the traction control is accomplished only through the PCM torque control. The traction control system can be disabled by pressing the traction control switch and is indicated by the traction control light in the instrument cluster. The traction control system resets and returns to normal operation when the ignition switch is cycled, or when the traction control switch is pressed and released a second time during the same ignition cycle.

There is no other description for what you're doing - either you're purposely ignoring the facts you've been presented just to be argumentative or you're just not smart enough to understand them. Either way I'm done arguing.

Facts? Nobody has provided any documents, just what's stated in Ford's PR releases or what you think, nothing factual. Your arguing, I'm discussing.

Facts are like the YouTube video, although no Ford products but vehicles with AWD/4WD couldn't provide enough rear wheel torque to climb a incline with the front wheels slipping. Considering the way a Fusion/Escape works, it seems that it would though.

Pulses? Isn't that applying the brake? Now you're just arguing over semantics. Pulsing the brakes on the spinning wheel will send torque to the non spinning wheel. That's the whole point of traction control.

 

Ford's system gives the PCM control over the amount of torque accepted by the rear - electronically via the clutch in the rear differential. Engaging the rear clutch sends torque to the rear wheels. When the rear takes torque that torque has to come from the front. Therefore it transfers torque from the front to the rear in increments.

 

 

 

Sending torque to the rear prevents possible wheel slip in the event that it IS slippery. If it's not slippery then it doesn't hurt. It doesn't anticipate ACTUAL slippage - it anticipates POSSIBLE slippage. I think you understand this but you're just trying to be argumentative. Otherwise you're just an idiot. Either way it's pointless to continue arguing.

If you resort to name calling, you must be uneducated and/or weren't brought up very well.

Brakes aren't on/off devices. You can apply a constant pressure on a brake and not lock-up a wheel. That constant pressure is enough to provide a reaction force to push the torque back through the open diff and over to the other side.

They are when it comes to the ABS function which TC uses to pulse the brakes on a single or multiple wheels. Pulsing gives more control, it's like the PWM used on the ATC or DRL.

I like to anticipate if I'm going to get wet from the rain before I walk outside. Usually I can look out the window and I'll know. But if I didn't have a window, and wanted to guarantee that every time I walked outside I would stay dry, they I would put up my umbrella every time before I walked out the door. Most of the time it wouldn't be needed, but the few times it is raining, I would stay dry. That's what anticipating means.

 

 

 

I was trying to point out why your 4WD light doesn't come on, not that it was directly related to the overheat condition. The owner's guide does specifically say the message center will be used for AWD/4WD system malfunctions, but not specifically overheating.

What page?

Okay, I looked at the '07 Fusion owner's manual. You wouldn't know if it was overheated or had a blown fuse. The "wrench" icon for mine is listed as Throttle Control/Power Train. If you pull the fuse, it will light up.

No indicator for a over temperature, so no need for instructions on how to deal with it but since there isn't a temperature sensor anyway, who needs a indicator?

First of all that's not true. Maybe in a low-powered hybrid, but in anything else the AWD makes a big difference in dry pavement.

 

Secondly, how is the car supposed to know if the pavement is dry? Did Ford "dupe" you into thinking that it would somehow know if you're driving on dry or wet pavement?

This system is supposed to anticipate wheel spin before it happens! I gues the car does know if the pavement is dry or not.

Hey guys, I'm still waiting for the pages in your Fusion owner's manual about dash warning of high temperature of the ATC unit.

It shifts torque from the front to the rear by engaging the solenoid in the rear differential. Increasing the rear torque automatically decreases the front torque (as Waldo pointed out). There is no other way to do it since the amount of torque put out by the engine at any given point in time is fixed.

 

You do not understand how differentials and traction control work. If you take a vehicle with an open differential where one wheel is spinning freely and you stop that wheel, what do you think happens? Torque is transferred to the other wheel. With four channel ABS the PCM has the ability to apply the brakes to ONE WHEEL at a time. If it detects wheelspin, it applies the brake to that wheel which then TRANSFERS the torque to the other wheel with traction.

 

That couple with the ability to send torque front and rear means that ONE WHEEL with traction can get torque. That is the definition of ALL WHEEL DRIVE.

I do understand how a open differetial works with TC. TC doesn't apply the brake to the spinning wheel , it pulses the brake, you'd lose control of the vehicle if it applied the brake fully.

The Ford Escape Hybrid didn't have TC before 2009, so what do you call them?

Good grief, I've pointed out to you several times how it's you that seems to have the reading disorder. I was looking at the graphic while I was typing my previous post, it certainly does/did not show side to side transfer on winding roads. All the other references to "wheel" are used when describing a system that includes traction control/RSC, which clearly can be used to direct torque to one wheel.

 

Now you're going to argue that there is a difference between "increasing" and "shifting"?? The engine puts out a given amount of torque at any one time. The only way to increase the rear torque at that point in time is by taking away torque from the front. How does the word "shift" not fit that condition?

What graphic are you looking at? The first post in that thread is just a picture of what it looked like but not the actual selectable one. The link to the actual selectable graphic has been broken since last year some time, unless you have a working link, I'd be happy to look at and admit if I'm wrong about what it showed. At a constant speed on dry pavement, it wouldn't send any torque to the rear.

The references to "wheel(s)" is in the graphic and also the description of AWD at the Ford's Mecrury site. Just look at the top of the graphic, does it say TC??

You don't have a transfer case, therefore you don't have a differential between the front and rear. Without a differential, you can't shift torque from the front to rear as one would with Full-Time Four Wheel Drive.

I will admit that it's some design to eliminate the transfer case, drive off a PTU to the rearend using a PWM operated clutch without tearing the PTU during operation.

You didn't get duped. Your AWD operates as designed and as advertised. If you don't like it then get rid of it and stop whining about it incessantly.

It seems that you guys have a reading disorder of sorts. I have posted above and it was also used the graphic that Ford killed where they said they said torque is directed to the "wheel(s)" that have the most traction. That implies that torque is shifted from side to side which the system is not able to do. A open differetial sends the torque to the wheel that has the "least" traction. Actually there isn't a differential between the front and back so it can't shift torque that way either. It can supposedly increase rear wheel torque when needed.