akirby Posted February 27, 2008 Share Posted February 27, 2008 My wifes 2005 500AWD would react the same in the snow. Dead straight on flooring the pedal from a dead stop. They did tell her to turn off the TC if she got stuck in the snow. Never had to try that option. Why all the references to "dead straight on flooring the pedal"? I don't understand the implication. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimmy G Posted February 27, 2008 Share Posted February 27, 2008 Why all the references to "dead straight on flooring the pedal"? I don't understand the implication. All the P/U's I've had,including the current one, would drift a little in the rear in FWD when accelerating briskly in the snow. Probably because of the lighter weight over the rear axle. The Fusion and 500 do not do that with the TC on. The Fusion does it with the TC off. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
awdpath Posted February 28, 2008 Share Posted February 28, 2008 Maybe they've improved the TC logic or it works differently with AWD. On the 2000 LS if you hit a bump while turning the TC would cut in and you could feel the braking and drop in torque - it was just like you had lifted off the accelerator. Very disconcerting. And many folks had problems trying to go up a hill because of that - it would lose all forward momentum. Sounds like they've improved it quite a bit. What happens when TC is optimally calibrated?...it gets banned from F1. http://www.f1technical.net/articles/7 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jshell757 Posted January 12, 2009 Share Posted January 12, 2009 Wanted to Jump in here real quick. The Front is basically an "Poor Mans LSD" where is works through the T/C system to get you going again, it can send power to one wheel, with the brakes on the other, and it has got better since the LS times, I can remember those "Fun" times in a friends car.... Jeesh. As for the ABS Channel Options, I am not sure of the MKZ, but the Fusion and Milan have 4 channel ABS systems. If you look at the HCU for them, you can see that it clearly has 4 outputs for each wheel. Take a Look: 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jshell757 Posted January 12, 2009 Share Posted January 12, 2009 This is From my All Data Account: 2007 Ford Fusion AWD V6-3.0L VIN 1 Vehicle Level Transmission and Drivetrain Differential Assembly Description and Operation Driveline System Driveline System Notes Driveline System The driveline system consists of the following components: Center support bearing Driveshaft assembly Front halfshafts Rear halfshafts Active torque coupling/rear axle On front wheel drive (FWD) vehicles, the transaxle transmits power from the engine to the halfshafts. On four wheel drive (4WD) vehicles, power is transmitted from the engine through the transaxle to the power take-off unit (PTU). The PTU transfers engine power from the transaxle to the front halfshafts, and through the driveshaft to the active torque coupling/rear axle and halfshafts. The engine angle is built into the engine mounts. If the engine angle is out of specification, the engine mounts must be inspected for damage. Vehicle Certification (VC) Label Example Vehicle Certification (VC) Label Example The vehicle certification (VC) label is located in the driver door jamb. The axle code is on the VC label. The axle ratio is 2.93 and the ring gear has a diameter of 174 mm (6.85 inch) . The wheel speed sensor rings for FWD vehicles are located on the front halfshafts and are mounted to the rear inner spindles. The wheel speed sensor rings are located on the front and rear halfshafts for 4WD vehicles. Driveshaft CAUTION: All driveshaft assemblies are balanced. If undercoating the vehicle, protect the driveshaft to prevent overspray of any undercoating material. CAUTION: Manual and automatic transmission, as well as 3.0L and 2.3L engine, driveshafts are different. Make sure that the driveshaft being installed is compatible with the vehicle or damage to the vehicle may occur. The driveshaft has traditional balance weights attached (spot-welded) by the manufacturer. Universal Joints The front joint is replaced with the driveshaft. The center and rear joints are: a lubed-for-life design that requires no periodic lubrication. equipped with nylon thrust washers located at the base of each bearing cup which control end play, position the needle bearings and improve grease movement. Rear Drive Axle and Differential The active torque coupling/rear axle is serviced as an assembly. The differential housing cover uses a silicone sealant rather than a gasket. Each halfshaft is held in the differential case by a driveshaft bearing retainer circlip that is located on the inner constant velocity (CV) joint stub shaft pilot bearing housing. When each halfshaft is installed, the driveshaft bearing retainer circlip engages a slot in the differential side gear. The rear drive axle operates as follows: The rear drive axle pinion receives power from the engine through the transaxle, transfer case, driveshaft and active torque coupling, and is always engaged. The pinion gear rotates the differential case, which is bolted to the differential case outer flange. Inside the differential case, 2 differential pinion gears are mounted on a differential pinion shaft that is pinned to the differential case. These differential pinion gears are engaged with the differential side gears, to which the halfshafts are splined. As the differential case turns, it rotates the halfshafts and rear wheels. When it is necessary for one wheel and halfshaft to rotate faster than the other, the faster turning differential side gear causes the differential pinion gears to roll on the slower turning differential side gear. This allows differential action between the 2 halfshafts. Front Drive Halfshafts The front drive halfshafts consist of the following components: Inner CV joints Outer CV joints Intermediate shaft/bearing Halfshafts The intermediate shaft bearing is pressed on and is only serviced as an assembly with the intermediate shaft. Halfshaft Joint The front drive halfshaft joints consist of the following components: Inner CV joints Outer CV joints CV joint boot clamps CV joint boots Tripod joint housings Retainer circlips Rear Drive Halfshafts CAUTION: An inspection of the outer and inner CV joint boots is necessary so that if damage or grease leakage is evident, installation of a new halfshaft can take place immediately. Continued operation with damage or grease leakage will result in CV joint wear and noise due to contamination and loss of the CV joint grease. The inner and outer CV joints connect to a splined shaft. A circlip holds the cross groove inner race assembly (inner CV joint) together. The RH and LH halfshafts are the same length. An axle circlip retains the splined inner CV joint to the differential side gear. Install a new axle circlip each time the halfshaft is removed from the vehicle. rear axle wheel hub nut secures the side shaft assembly (interconnecting shaft and outer CV joint) to the rear wheel hub. Install a new rear axle wheel hub nut each time the halfshaft is removed from the vehicle. Half shaft Handling CAUTION: Never pick up or hold the halfshaft by only the inner or outer CV joint. CAUTION: Handle the halfshaft only by the interconnecting shaft to avoid pull-apart and potential damage to the CV joints. CAUTION: Do not overangle the CV joints. CAUTION: Damage will occur to an assembled inner CV joint if it is overplunged outward from the joint housing. CAUTION: Never use a hammer to remove or install the halfshafts. CAUTION: Never use the halfshaft assembly as a lever to position other components. Always support the free-end of the halfshaft. CAUTION: Do not allow the boots to contact sharp edges or hot exhaust components. CAUTION: Do not drop assembled halfshafts. The impact may cut the boots from the inside without evidence of external damage. Handle all halfshaft components carefully during removal and installation procedures. Kind of makes you wonder........ 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
metroplex Posted January 12, 2009 Author Share Posted January 12, 2009 This is From my All Data Account:.... Kind of makes you wonder........ Yep, open diffs in the front and rear 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jshell757 Posted January 12, 2009 Share Posted January 12, 2009 Yea, I think they still operate like E-LSD's with the T/C on. The system on the Fusion seems to be a HUGE improvement over the one on the LS, Panthers, and others. I also have a Grand Marquis with the HPP, and I know EXACTLY what you mean by the Traction Control and Snow. It just overheats and that is it. Trac-Lok Worked Wonders. On my Fusion, We just had some snow here, and with the T/C on, I floored it, and it stayed straight. This was in a open lot with about 2 inches of unplowed snow and a grade. With the T/C off, I had a small drift to the left, and then to the right, so I do not know what that is about. It felt like my Grand Marquis, but if it's open, it should not do that. Here is another question, with the T/C off, is the T/C system logic still being used for the AWD system? The new generation Haldex units are E-Lsd's. It seems like this Ford system is a poor mans E-lsd with the T/C on, but not as bad a Panther or LS. Also, the Ford AWD system seems to be better for handling around corners as is senses speed and steering angle to kick the power to the rear during heavy manuevering or at higher speeds on windy roads, no Torque steer at all. My old Sable used to be a pain when it came to that and corners or higher speed manuevering. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
metroplex Posted January 12, 2009 Author Share Posted January 12, 2009 I forgot if the Fusion AWD uses a viscous coupling or mechanical LSD center diff? I hear the viscous coupling units can burn out and cost a pretty penny to replace. I'm kind of skeptical about the Ford AWD systems because I've been tricked by Ford in the past with its Traction Control and open differentials. I'd love to learn more but Ford is kind of hush hush about its system, and there aren't many videos on YouTube of people racing their AWD CD3 cars. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jshell757 Posted January 12, 2009 Share Posted January 12, 2009 I still think the Fusion is based on the Haldex eLSD. Since is can send power from Side to side, it is sort of like a poor mans eLSD. It is an Electrontic PTO/PTU with a Coupling, as opposed to a mechanical/pressure one from Haldex. Viscous coupling units are pretty reliable in "On Demand" AWD systems as they are not always used. Prices will still be more reasonable than a Subaru to replace. It uses braking, but this system seems to actually work, unlike the systems in the Panthers, or the LS. The Old Haldex gen 3 units in the 500/Montego seemed to be rear LSD units, but the slip had to occur for it to operate. For Example, on a 500/montego, if you punched it, the slip must occur to engage the AWD. The the Fusion, since it has ETC (Throttle control) and a steering angle sensor, it can anticipate a slip, and get you out of the situation before you get in it. I know from a romp off the line, or a bendy road with speed, the AWD will kick the power to the rear and let you get moving, or get around the bends and curves. I think with this system, it works almost like Haldex, but also anticipates a slip, and transfers power. The Haldex Gen 3 system did not do that on the 500/Montego. I don't think that you will have an issue with a Fusion AWD system since you can handle a Panther or Mustang in the Snow. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted January 12, 2009 Share Posted January 12, 2009 There is no center differential. The PTU sends power to the rear differential and the rear differential engages the rear wheels as directed electronically. At least that's how it was explained to me. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jshell757 Posted January 13, 2009 Share Posted January 13, 2009 That is pretty much what I thought, the PTU is electronic and the rear is also directly electronically. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
awdpath Posted January 13, 2009 Share Posted January 13, 2009 JTEKT (Toyoda Machine Works) ITCC's 4WD coupling ( 2007-2009 Fusion/Milan/MKZ AWD): http://www.jtekt.co.jp/e/products/drive02.html http://www.jstage.jst.go.jp/article/trol/2/1/19/_pdf (look under "Vehicle Technology") The Fusion/Milan/MKZ AWD system(2007-2009) does not use "Viscous Coupling", it uses "Electronic Clutch (or electronically activated hydraulic clutch)" and it's AWD Traction Control is similar to "EDL (often referred to as Electronic Traction Control.)" with throttle control. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jshell757 Posted January 13, 2009 Share Posted January 13, 2009 Good info AWDPATH. Like I said before, It's sort of like a More Advanced Electronic Poor Mans LSD as it Actually Tries to prevent wheelspin as it measures throttle input, speeds, and steering angles. Even the new Haldex Units are Electronic LSD's. And the Ford System is based off of it. I know it Works FAR BETTER then the System that was used on the LS and the Panthers, in the snow, it would just sit there, spin the wheel, and then overheat. Got a Trac-Lok and solved that one Forever. The Fusion can take off Straight in the snow with the T/C on, and hold the line with no trouble at all, even when gunning it. With off the T/C off , I got a small kick to the left and right, and then it was straight. But it was nothing like a panther will do with a Posi, or their Trac Control system. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
awdpath Posted January 13, 2009 Share Posted January 13, 2009 ...With the T/C off, I had a small drift to the left, and then to the right, so I do not know what that is about. It felt like my Grand Marquis, but if it's open, it should not do that. Here is another question, with the T/C off, is the T/C system logic still being used for the AWD system?... When the AWD Traction Control is turned off, it is possible that only the throttle control is disengaged. Here is an example from Jeep: Jeep Brake Traction Control Explained 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimmy G Posted January 19, 2009 Share Posted January 19, 2009 Mine is working real good in all this snow on the south shore of Lake Erie!! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rodeo Posted September 11, 2009 Share Posted September 11, 2009 I'm not sure I want to get tricked by Ford again with fancy advertising. I think FORD has reached the height of "word Craftsmanship" with the advertising of their new 2010 Taurus. They're throwing around B.S. with such flair that you actually look forward to walking through it and getting it on your shoes. I know because I was fooled (for a while that is) and then I went and sat in the car and in 5 minutes changed my entire opinion. Anyway I have heard that the FF AWD is the same as the Escapes AWD? Mine is an 07 Escape with so called "4 wheel drive" but I believe it is a version of AWD. The point I am trying to make is that through the several winters I have owned and driven my Escape, I could not tell when the 4 wheel drive engaged. There is no lag and nothing to tell you what is happening other then you just keep moving. The only time I could detect "slippage" is on a slippery and slimey wet boat ramp and I hear one wheel begin to slip and that lasts for but a split second before the escape just grabs down and pulls up the ramp. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted September 11, 2009 Share Posted September 11, 2009 I think FORD has reached the height of "word Craftsmanship" with the advertising of their new 2010 Taurus. They're throwing around B.S. with such flair that you actually look forward to walking through it and getting it on your shoes. I know because I was fooled (for a while that is) and then I went and sat in the car and in 5 minutes changed my entire opinion. Care to elaborate? What, exactly, did they BS about? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rodeo Posted September 11, 2009 Share Posted September 11, 2009 Care to elaborate? What, exactly, did they BS about? Here ya go, This "Blink" and 5x5x5 stuff is all just wordy crafted salesmanship that is smoke and mirrors as far as I'm concerned. Just allot of well thought out hype. Hey, that's MY opinion. http://fordtaurusforum.com/index.php?showtopic=134 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted September 11, 2009 Share Posted September 11, 2009 That's not advertising. That's just an article about how Ford conducts research. I don't see any "smoke and mirrors" nor do I see any reason for Ford to employ "smoke and mirrors" in such an article. So what you're really trying to say is you don't like the Taurus interior? Fine. You're one out of hundreds of thousands of potential customers. Just because you don't like it doesn't make it bad. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rodeo Posted September 11, 2009 Share Posted September 11, 2009 That's not advertising. That's just an article about how Ford conducts research. I don't see any "smoke and mirrors" nor do I see any reason for Ford to employ "smoke and mirrors" in such an article. So what you're really trying to say is you don't like the Taurus interior? Fine. You're one out of hundreds of thousands of potential customers. Just because you don't like it doesn't make it bad. Sorry, but I tend to disagree with you on this one. Somebody missed doing research of the inside then. I think their advertising of this new model is over the top like it's the best vehicle ever built. But I do agree with you that I dont like the interior layout and ergonomics, not one bit. I think the engineers who designed the interior ought' to run and duck for cover soon. Enough about the Taurus though, it's not a consideration for me anymore and this is a Fusion forum. (And the Fusion is much much better!) 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted September 11, 2009 Share Posted September 11, 2009 So the only opinion on interior design and ergonomics that counts is yours? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rodeo Posted September 11, 2009 Share Posted September 11, 2009 So the only opinion on interior design and ergonomics that counts is yours? For ME it is! Like I said it was MY opinion of it. I wouldn't take anyone elses opinion and don't expect anyone to purchase based upon mine either. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted September 12, 2009 Share Posted September 12, 2009 For ME it is! Like I said it was MY opinion of it. I wouldn't take anyone elses opinion and don't expect anyone to purchase based upon mine either. No, you said Ford's "advertising" was "smoke and mirrors" because you didn't like it. That's way different than just saying "I don't like the interior". 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rodeo Posted September 12, 2009 Share Posted September 12, 2009 No, you said Ford's "advertising" was "smoke and mirrors" because you didn't like it. That's way different than just saying "I don't like the interior". Well "in my opinion" it is but apparently you don't like when others express their own opinion or if your opinion differs. Why does this bother you so much or is it because you are somehow tied to Ford or own allot of FORD Stock? This is a Forum where (among other things) people can express their "opinion" of something and I myself don't have a problem when someone else expresses theirs, even if I might disagree with it. It's a part of life and when you step outside your sheltered door you too will find that the world is full of different people, different ideas, different beliefs and different "opinions." In conclusion, YES I believe there is allot of "hype" surrounding the new 2010 Ford Taurus and fancy smancy promotion involving allot of well crafted wording that in the end doesn't amount to anything concrete, (ala smoke and mirrors). I sat in the car and again "in my opinion" (which I am entitled to) I think the car sucked (on the inside anyway.) Case closed, please get over it if you are capable. If it's any consolation to you and to possibly make you feel better, I will say that I rather "like" the exterior design of the car though. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted September 12, 2009 Share Posted September 12, 2009 If you don't understand the difference between calling Ford's article "BS" and "smoke and mirrors" and simply saying that you don't like the interior, then I can't explain it any better. If 7 out of 10 prospective buyers like the interior, wouldn't that mean the article is accurate? You're never going to have a product that everybody likes. You're basically saying Ford is a liar just because you don't like the design and I think that's silly because you don't represent all consumers. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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