crash525 Posted October 8, 2014 Share Posted October 8, 2014 They dont need a good reason they just need a reason. If they have an idea they want to make it happen just to make a point that they did something. They want to use there school so they make things as technical as possible. I used to work for a company that make bearings for ford,gm, etc. You would be surprised by how much unnecessary stuff they want to change, how much they can put an object through before failure and then make it smaller and then it fails more often. Just to save a few fractions of a cent over for ever 1000 dollars. When they didnt have to change it and the part would be fine with almost no failures. But it was about making a point that it could be done. With the throttle plate someone had an idea that WOT throttle works better because there is no air flow resistance. It works in certain situations. It makes problems for others. So far the dealer has not said anything is wrong with my car. But they have a long list of issues to deal with. Hopefully tomorrow. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted October 8, 2014 Share Posted October 8, 2014 Unless you have an engineering degree and multiple years experience with software based engine controls on modern vehicles, I'm going to stick with the folks that do and say they know more about it than you do. There are dozens of things they are forced to do either for emissions, fuel economy, reliability or driveability that wouldn't make sense to a non-professional especially when taken out of context. It also does not seem to bother the thousands of other Fusion owners so I would suspect your car has a problem and it's not the ETC programming. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FusionDiffusion Posted October 9, 2014 Share Posted October 9, 2014 Agreed, the powertrain programming is not going to make much sense to a layperson. Engineers strive to make the simplest/cheapest solution to complicated problems, thinking they are just trying to use their schooling to make things more complicated for their own enjoyment is just silly. An electronic throttle body solves a lot of modern powetrain control concerns (they can actually make the transmission shifting smoother in addition to the throttling losses you mentioned). I will also attest that the way it is operating is normal (my car is perfectly smooth with the throttle body behaving like yours), and you likely have something else causing your issues. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crash525 Posted October 11, 2014 Share Posted October 11, 2014 Unless you have an engineering degree and multiple years experience with software based engine controls on modern vehicles, I'm going to stick with the folks that do and say they know more about it than you do. There are dozens of things they are forced to do either for emissions, fuel economy, reliability or driveability that wouldn't make sense to a non-professional especially when taken out of context. I never said that is how they work. I never said I know more than the ford engineers. I said I think that is how it works. The part about how the TB runs WOT most of the time came directly from fords engineers, not my idea. Plus you dont need an engineering degree to understand how this stuff works. Its pretty simple. Have you ever seen how many lines of programming code go into a newer cars pcm? About double that of a modern computers operating system. That just controls a few sensors, again overly complicated. Also I know all sorts of types of problems they have to over come for emissions and everything else. Just because I am not an engineer or a ford certified mechanic does not mean I dont know anything about what they do to cars and why they do it. So thanks for putting that out there. Just shows your ignorance. There are thousands of fusion owners who do not have problems. Yes that is true. Some people just drive their car until it dies, some people dont even know when their car is over heating. Other peoples cars have defects, other peoples cars a perfectly fine. Yet there are some people on this forum who made this topic about the same problem I am having. So saying my car has a problem is correct. I never said that my ETC is bad, I said that the way it works is over complicated and flawed. That doesnt mean it wont work. I said that there is a combination of things that is causing my issue. Also I never said that there was a problem with the TB just how they designed it to work and how that works contributes to the driveability issue I have. Like I said their are a few other problems that are combined together to make the driveability worse. Yes drive by wire fixes alot of the issues with transmission shifting and operation. It also creates alot more problem. It is impossible for a computer to be programmed for every driving situation and shifting situation. Oh by the way for the people who want to know what the dealer said about my car. They said they could not replicate the problems even though they noticed all my problems while they test drove with me. I asked them how they tried to replicate it and they told me. What they were trying to do was completely wrong for the problems I am having. I am taking the car back and personally going to drive them and show them how to replicated it. Also the service department had quoted what I had said wrong so half of the problems they were looking for were not the problems I was having. If anyone is curious look into some GM car transmission. A few have the same 6f35 as the fusion but with different clutch plates and programming. It is very hard to find anything that went wrong with these transmission and problems with driveability. But yet ford had numerous problems and they cant even get the transmission to shift smoothly. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted October 11, 2014 Share Posted October 11, 2014 There are lots of GM tranny problems too like the 6T40 on the Cruze. Not as many as the 6F35 perhaps but they do exist. When you say something like this They dont need a good reason they just need a reason. If they have an idea they want to make it happen just to make a point that they did something. They want to use there school so they make things as technical as possible. it shows your ignorance about automotive engineers and software development in general. Doing what you suggest would get an engineer fired because it adds time and cost to a project and causes warranty issues and their peers and managers wouldn't allow it. I know a former ford transmissions engineer who managed the software on the ford explorer and Lincoln LS transmissions. I've also been a software developer and architect at a fortune 50 company for almost 30 years. Stick to things you know about. I'm not defending the 6f35. It has issues including software. But not for the reason you stated. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crash525 Posted October 12, 2014 Share Posted October 12, 2014 ""it shows your ignorance about automotive engineers and software development in general. Doing what you suggest would get an engineer fired because it adds time and cost to a project and causes warranty issues and their peers and managers wouldn't allow it. I know a former ford transmissions engineer who managed the software on the ford explorer and Lincoln LS transmissions. I've also been a software developer and architect at a fortune 50 company for almost 30 years. Stick to things you know about."" Its cool if you want to flex your muscles online about who you worked for and what you know. Honestly no one cares. Im posting about an opinion and what i think. Im not stating it as a fact. But you keep trying to prove to me that im wrong and you are right. No body cares its the internet. I cannot prove what i think and neither can you. I have a good idea on how most engineers think. Also I worked for a company as a metallurgical technician for a while that made rocker arm axles, pinion pins, needle bearings, roller bearings, thrust bearings, and thrust washers for the top three auto manufactures. They make over 6 billion parts per year. I have a good back ground in computer programming and a very good back ground in auto mechanics. But pal its called research and development, cost savings in short term over long term. Why do you think ford put out a "customer service satisfaction program" for the throttle bodies in some of their vehicles? Its because they found it to be cheaper to replace them when they fail instead of replacing everyone if they were to issue a recall, which they should have done. They hope that most cars will make it out of the warranty before they fail. Have you ever noticed that withe vehicles parts are becoming smaller, thinner, made out of different materials. Its because they want to reduce cost. Think about this. a motor and transmission can have hundreds of bearings, rocker arms axles, pinion pins and what not. they sell hundreds of thousands of cars. By reducing the cost and weight or these parts they save money. If they can save $.50 per car, that adds up. By trying to save money they make things smaller, more technical, and out of different material. They factor in the fail ratio of parts over x amount of time to see if it will save them money or not from the warranty work they will do because of it. Say an engineer gets a bright idea to make something out of a different material. Its lighter weight, cost less and fast to produce. But not as strong and doesnt have the longevity of the old way it was made. They make it, they test it, and if they are happy that it wont fail to often in cars under the warranty period, so then they produce it. To me thats a bad idea. But the engineers dont care what happens after the warranty period. Their jobs are to design stuff that will work and save the company money. Also the complexity of the programming is these cars is to get the most mpg they possibly, making the transmission smooth, extend the life of the transmission, while meeting any criteria they have too. Like I said before they cannot be programmed to every aspect of driving. And again I never said its broken, just flawed. We can sit here all day and go back and forth. Have fun if you want to continue this. I am done with this. I will only post about the original thread topic. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted October 13, 2014 Share Posted October 13, 2014 If Ford only builds things to last the warranty period then why do they test their engines to 150K miles and why are engine failures before 150k miles extremely rare? You don't recall a part that's only failing in 10% or 20% of the vehicles and doesn't pose a safety risk. You'd be replacing thousands of perfectly good parts for no reason. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crash525 Posted October 14, 2014 Share Posted October 14, 2014 Just so you know that the throttle body does pose a huge safety risk. If it fails while on a highway or any other type of road it can cause major accidents. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted October 14, 2014 Share Posted October 14, 2014 Cars lose power for a variety of reasons on every road every day. Not saying there is NO safety aspect but it's not as dramatic as some make it out to be. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ford9n Posted January 14, 2015 Author Share Posted January 14, 2015 I am the person with the 2012 SE 3.0 that started this post. Still have the car, still have the problem. The car now has about 25,000 miles. I figured out how to recreate the problem without the car moving. With the car running, place the transmission in neutral, increase the throttle to between 2,100 and 2,500 RPM, hold it reasonably steady and the engine develops a misfire and corresponding shake [it will also do it at lesser RPMs, but the misfire is not as bad]. I was also able to figure out that my Fusion has this problem while driving in gears 4, 5 and especially 6. I think I read above the misfire described as a 'jerking sensation' while driving, like the car is towing a trailer; that's another way to accurately describe the problem. With this new found information, I once again took my Fusion and headed off to the Ford Dealer. Repeating the process described, the Ford technician and service advisor also heard and felt the car misfire. Placing the car on a monitor, they found "the misfires are recorded by the IDS misfire monitor, they do not fall below the misfire threshold. Every cylinder will misfire. They are not steady, they occur erratically but constant" at the indicated RPM range. This is from the service report. They performed the following (again, from service report): power balance (?), passed; EEC test, passed; 'relative' compression test, passed; fuel pressure test, passed; ignition system test, passed; coil on plug test, passed. The MAF and VCT readings are within spec. The dealer replaced spark plugs, swapped coils with 'known good coils', replaced a cam (or crank) sensor, none of which changed how the engine runs. The dealer also swapped out the PCM, again, no change. The dealer did not change out the throttle body. The Ford Field Service Engineer (once again, in the service report) suggested the problem may be caused by a "low MAF due to a leak between the MAF and intake, exhaust restriction incorrect air box or restricted air filter". I don't know if the Dealer investigated any of these suggestions. Ford's Field Service Engineer for the NE Ohio area has now advised the Dealer that this problem is in fact a normal characteristic of the car and advises no further actions. I'm not convinced. I have a son who has a 2010 Fusion owned since new with the 3.0 and 70,000+ miles. His car does not have this issue. With the information presented above, any suggestions? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
con_fusion Posted January 28, 2015 Share Posted January 28, 2015 I am the person with the 2012 SE 3.0 that started this post. Still have the car, still have the problem. The car now has about 25,000 miles. I figured out how to recreate the problem without the car moving. With the car running, place the transmission in neutral, increase the throttle to between 2,100 and 2,500 RPM, hold it reasonably steady and the engine develops a misfire and corresponding shake [it will also do it at lesser RPMs, but the misfire is not as bad]. I was also able to figure out that my Fusion has this problem while driving in gears 4, 5 and especially 6. I think I read above the misfire described as a 'jerking sensation' while driving, like the car is towing a trailer; that's another way to accurately describe the problem. With this new found information, I once again took my Fusion and headed off to the Ford Dealer. Repeating the process described, the Ford technician and service advisor also heard and felt the car misfire. Placing the car on a monitor, they found "the misfires are recorded by the IDS misfire monitor, they do not fall below the misfire threshold. Every cylinder will misfire. They are not steady, they occur erratically but constant" at the indicated RPM range. This is from the service report. They performed the following (again, from service report): power balance (?), passed; EEC test, passed; 'relative' compression test, passed; fuel pressure test, passed; ignition system test, passed; coil on plug test, passed. The MAF and VCT readings are within spec. The dealer replaced spark plugs, swapped coils with 'known good coils', replaced a cam (or crank) sensor, none of which changed how the engine runs. The dealer also swapped out the PCM, again, no change. The dealer did not change out the throttle body. The Ford Field Service Engineer (once again, in the service report) suggested the problem may be caused by a "low MAF due to a leak between the MAF and intake, exhaust restriction incorrect air box or restricted air filter". I don't know if the Dealer investigated any of these suggestions. Ford's Field Service Engineer for the NE Ohio area has now advised the Dealer that this problem is in fact a normal characteristic of the car and advises no further actions. I'm not convinced. I have a son who has a 2010 Fusion owned since new with the 3.0 and 70,000+ miles. His car does not have this issue. With the information presented above, any suggestions? Guess I'm a bit baffled at how they could think this is a normal characteristic of the car? Really? Misfiring is a normal characteristic of the car? If I understood correctly, their monitors are watching it misfire. Seems like it would be pretty easy to rule out a restricted air filter. Replace the intake parts if they think there is a leak. Is this something that can be escalated to a national field service engineer? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ford9n Posted January 31, 2015 Author Share Posted January 31, 2015 I spoke with Ford Customer Service who, after investigating my claim, said they were not able to assist and were not pursuing further action. I spoke with Autonation Ford's Service Manager who contacted Ford. The Service Manager, after speaking with Ford, also was not able to further to assist. Ford's position is based on the NE Ohio Ford Service Engineer's review of my car at 10,000 miles. They reviewed the car at that time, feel the issue I expressed then is the same as now and that "Repair attempts have made no difference in the concern the customer has described" [service Report, FSE statement]. The dealer service tech has had "no problem verifying the concern", so I am not imagining the issue. I have tried to escalate the claim, asked Autonation's Service Manager to assist, and have not been successful. Is the Fusion drivable, yes, I have owned it for almost three years. Is this driving characteristic a nuisance, yes, especially on longer trips. I have given up on Ford and Autonation assisting. Was hoping someone on the forum may have an idea. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
con_fusion Posted February 4, 2015 Share Posted February 4, 2015 I think you mentioned that they did not change out the throttle body. Could the TB cause a misfire situation? Not sure. Seems like they would have replaced it if they thought it was a possibility. So it would be a shot in the dark to replace it. If you wanted to replace it yourself it wouldn't be super expensive and could easily be done yourself. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted February 5, 2015 Share Posted February 5, 2015 TB would not cause a misfire. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prlywht Posted March 11, 2015 Share Posted March 11, 2015 New here. haven't done the intro thing yet, but want to offer a possible solution to this hesitation/stutter issue. 9 months ago we bought a 16,000 mile Fusion SEL, 3.0, full warranty due to late manufacture/first registration date. I was never impressed with the time from throttle tip-in to actual response from the engine. But, being hugely gratified with the way the car would light the tires from anything under a 15 mph roll, decided I could live with that. There was also an occasional seeming flat spot while rolling at 20-30 mph with steady foot pressure. Very occasional, enough to think it was just me. Being a subscriber to, among others, Hot Rod magazine, a few months ago I noticed something in their "new products" section. It was called "Pedalmax", made by JMS Chips. Not a cheap little gadget, at around $300. It was stated to smooth out the signals sent by the throttle sensor, and speed up throttle response. Apparently, Ford programs the system to, among other things I guess, be a little nicer to the transmission. Maybe a mileage thing as well. Warranty friendly, which was an issue for me. They also claim better shifting as a result. Figuring smoother, quicker response could only be a plus, I bought one, along with the optional remote dash-mounted dial for 0-100 percent adjustment. Having performed the installation this evening, I will offer only that it works as advertised, and I will be happily re-educating my right foot to ease the car down the road. It has eliminated the hesitation I noticed before, and the computer appears to be getting with the program. Love this car even more now!! Now for the odd part. A week ago, I was having the car serviced at the dealership, and got into a conversation with a salesman while checking out the new Mustangs. Declining his offer to do a deal, we came around to why I won't give up my Fusion, and I mentioned the fact that I had ordered the Pedalmax. He volunteered that the dealership has installed a few of them. Could it be that this has been their solution to the problem similar to what's being discussed here? I find it hard to believe they're Hot Rod readers, (could be wrong), but they've been doing it longer than when it came out in the magazine. Also find it unlikely to believe that it's a proscribed "Ford authorized" fix. Believe me, it is a large performance difference from factory settings. I can only suggest that you check this out, maybe talk to your dealer about it. They may be unaware (uninformed) or non-caring, but it's worth a discussion with a knowledgeable tech. The install is not difficult, unless you can't handle being contorted while on your back. Largely one-handed due to close quarters, but the only hard part was doing zip ties one-handed. I mounted the remote dial under the steering column with double-sided body molding tape. The wire slips through between the column and the dash panel, so it doesn't hang below the dash. Didn't want to use screws. An aesthetics thing. Instructions were great, and you can also find install videos on youtube. Check it out. If nothing else, it's a great upgrade for those that have no driveability issues, and just want their car to be more obedient to your "we go now" desires. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ssdudu12 Posted April 14, 2015 Share Posted April 14, 2015 Has anyone clearly figured out this shudder/hesitation issue when cruising at highway speeds? Read lots of theories (motor mounts, trans fluid, trans programming, injectors, Pedalmax), but nothing seems definitive. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FordService Posted April 14, 2015 Share Posted April 14, 2015 Has anyone clearly figured out this shudder/hesitation issue when cruising at highway speeds? Read lots of theories (motor mounts, trans fluid, trans programming, injectors, Pedalmax), but nothing seems definitive. Hi ssdudu12, Welcome to the forum! Have you brought this issue to the attention of your dealership? If not, I'd recommend that as a next step. How many miles are on your Fusion? I'll look into this further and see how I can assist. Crystal 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ssdudu12 Posted April 14, 2015 Share Posted April 14, 2015 Hi ssdudu12, Welcome to the forum! Have you brought this issue to the attention of your dealership? If not, I'd recommend that as a next step. How many miles are on your Fusion? I'll look into this further and see how I can assist. Crystal 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ssdudu12 Posted April 14, 2015 Share Posted April 14, 2015 Hi ssdudu12, Welcome to the forum! Have you brought this issue to the attention of your dealership? If not, I'd recommend that as a next step. How many miles are on your Fusion? I'll look into this further and see how I can assist. Crystal With the wide range of issues and non-answers received on this thread, I didn't want to waste time at the dealership while they don't find anything for a week. I have a 2012 3.0 SEL I bought used from a private party with 65k miles. Didn't take it on a long enough test drive to notice the hesitation issue unfortunately. Ultimately, I'd like to know if anyone has ACTUALLY solved this issue to give me some direction when I talk to a service provider. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FordService Posted April 15, 2015 Share Posted April 15, 2015 With the wide range of issues and non-answers received on this thread, I didn't want to waste time at the dealership while they don't find anything for a week. I have a 2012 3.0 SEL I bought used from a private party with 65k miles. Didn't take it on a long enough test drive to notice the hesitation issue unfortunately. Ultimately, I'd like to know if anyone has ACTUALLY solved this issue to give me some direction when I talk to a service provider. I completely understand, ssdudu12. If you decide to get your dealership involved, let me know and I'll do what I can to assist. Keep us posted on how things progress! Crystal 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scottjackson1209 Posted April 22, 2015 Share Posted April 22, 2015 (edited) Hey guys I'm new to the forum but I thought I would post and ask you guys about an issue I am having with my 08 V6. while cruising or idling you can feel the engine stuttering...almost like a misfire. there are no check engine lights and it accelerates as good as it did when we first bought it. the car has almost 140K miles on it. I haven't changed the spark plugs in almost 30K miles...would that be a good place to start? I initially thought it could be the fuel filter but I was shocked to find out with a little research that this car has a "Lifetime Fuel Filter" (sounds like a gimmick). My wife was worried about the transmission because it initially would only do it while cruising between 1500 and 2000 RPM's but the fact that it is now happening at idle as well makes me believe it is something else.... I'm not very knowledgeable when it comes to new cars. my background is tearing apart and rebuilding older cars where there aren't so many computers controlling everything. Let me know what you guys think! Edited April 22, 2015 by drolds1 This post is merged with an already established thread. Please search the forums before starting any thread 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darren139 Posted September 28, 2017 Share Posted September 28, 2017 Anyone figure this out my car is driving me crazy. with the light shudder motor bounces around like crazy. 49,000 km 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eGuru Posted September 29, 2017 Share Posted September 29, 2017 Please be more specific about the symptoms. 11 hours ago, Darren139 said: Anyone figure this out my car is driving me crazy. with the light shudder motor bounces around like crazy. 49,000 km 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darren139 Posted September 29, 2017 Share Posted September 29, 2017 (edited) At low speeds it studders bucks. Feels like a miss but not sure. Feels like I’m pulling a trailer with lots of weight on the tongue. Worst in 4th 5th 6th at constant speed. Edited September 29, 2017 by Darren139 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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