Vibration

[dandog96]

Hey all,

 

I recently purchased an 07 Mercury Milan Premier AWD (which to my knowledge is identical to the Fusion in terms of the powertrain).

 

The car has about 110,000 miles and runs great bar a vibration that occurs between 25-35 mph. This vibration is generally more present when the car hasn't yet warmed up. After doing some driving, the vibration mostly subsides. It can be felt pretty strongly in the back of the drivers seat.

My first thought was that this is the driveshaft. However, word around the street appears to be that when these do go, I should hear some sort of howl noise. My car remains silent though.

Any thoughts on what this can be?

 

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

 

Thanks,

 

Daniel

 

P.S: Putting the car in neutral does not change anything. Also, the car recently began developing a bounce kind of sensation in the front right wheel that typically occurs after driving a bit. Its not pleasant at all and it seems to go away after slowing down a bit.

[WWWPerfA_ZN0W]

First step would be to have the wheels & tires inspected for being true and non out-of-round. Aging rubber can have all kinds of maladies. Rotate them front to back to see if anything changes. Roadforce balancing highly recommended. Sometimes lug nuts are not torqued properly (over/under torqued), causing warping in brake rotors and wear/tear on the studs. Have any rust/grit in the mating surfaces cleaned up also.

 

Then look at what's between the wheels, e.g. suspension and the AWD setup. Worn struts & strut mounts can cause the bounce sensation. Worn bushings on components cause extra play leading to the vibration.

 

Check the PTU/trans/axle area for leaks. The PTU fluid fill level and condition should also be verified. The fact that the vibration subsides after a while points more to the PTU/axle/driveshaft being culprits. Driveshaft vibration will show up most strongly via the floorboards. Usually caused by failed bearings/supports, which means a new driveshaft would have to be installed. I don't think indexing the driveshaft will help any, but worth a shot before replacement. The RDU fluid should also be serviced at the same time, and the pinion seal inspected for integrity. The PTU-driveshaft seal does not fail that often, but it does.

[dandog96]

Thanks for the quick reply. I did already check the tires and I also rotated them. I get what you are saying about the struts causing a bouncing but its a different type of bounce. I.e it doesn't happen in response to a bump and it rarely happens on the highway, it will just randomly start kind of making a loud noise in the front right repeatedly with kind of a bouncing sensation. It's very hard to describe lol but it reminds me of when my caliper was locked up on an older BMW causing the wheel to overheat making a similar noise.

Also, brakes are relatively new and the caliper appears to be in good shape.

 

The only leaks I see are on the rear differential unit. It just appears to be wet but not actively leaking.

[FPD85]

Thanks for the quick reply. I did already check the tires and I also rotated them. I get what you are saying about the struts causing a bouncing but its a different type of bounce. I.e it doesn't happen in response to a bump and it rarely happens on the highway, it will just randomly start kind of making a loud noise in the front right repeatedly with kind of a bouncing sensation. It's very hard to describe lol but it reminds me of when my caliper was locked up on an older BMW causing the wheel to overheat making a similar noise.

Also, brakes are relatively new and the caliper appears to be in good shape.

 

The only leaks I see are on the rear differential unit. It just appears to be wet but not actively leaking.

 

I have a similar vibration issue, generally when I'm "pushing" with the car, if it is just inertially moving there is no vibration, then after 5~10 minutes the vibration stops happening. Seems to be PTU related, it is like if there was some bearing or tyre issue as it really vibrates the car, the more you push, the more is the vibration noticeable, but then it suddenly stops, or reduce a lot in a way there is very hard to notice it, is it like that maybe ?

 

The sensation is like if something is "holding" the car causing that vibration right ? :D

Edited April 8, 2016 by FPD85

[dandog96]

 

I have a similar vibration issue, generally when I'm "pushing" with the car, if it is just inertially moving there is no vibration, then after 5~10 minutes the vibration stops happening. Seems to be PTU related, it is like if there was some bearing or tyre issue as it really vibrates the car, the more you push, the more is the vibration noticeable, but then it suddenly stops, or reduce a lot in a way there is very hard to notice it, is it like that maybe ?

 

The sensation is like if something is "holding" the car causing that vibration right ? :D

 

Kind of, but I am not sure we are experiencing the same thing. Definitely sounds similar, though. It's most prominent on my car from about 15-25 mph (up to 40 when its cold) and above that and at highway speed its gone. It definitely subsides as the car is driven around. I don't know if I would describe it as holding the car...

 

The PTU is dry as well.

Edited April 9, 2016 by dandog96

[FPD85]

 

Kind of, but I am not sure we are experiencing the same thing. Definitely sounds similar, though. It's most prominent on my car from about 15-25 mph (up to 40 when its cold) and above that and at highway speed its gone. It definitely subsides as the car is driven around. I don't know if I would describe it as holding the car...

 

The PTU is dry as well.

 

What do you mean with dry ptu ? It has to have oil inside so it cannot be dry or do you mean just externally ?

 

** Edit ** : Got it, you've checked it for leaks.

Edited April 9, 2016 by FPD85

[dandog96]

Still don't know what it might be... I saw on the car fax though that the driveshaft was replaced at 43,000 miles but it appears to have a three piece driveshaft which if I'm not mistaken is the older type...

[drolds1]

Yes. The 3-piece driveshaft was eventually supplanted by a 2-piece unit.

 

The latest TSB on this is 11-2-14.

[dandog96]

Update: I took the car to the mechanic and we found that there was no gear oil whatsoever in the PTU. Hopefully this was the cause of the vibration. We refilled the fluid and I hope that this will fix it. I'll update with further information.

[drolds1]

Update: I took the car to the mechanic and we found that there was no gear oil whatsoever in the PTU. Hopefully this was the cause of the vibration. We refilled the fluid and I hope that this will fix it. I'll update with further information.

That begs the question: where did the gear oil go? You've already said there were no leaks. There's a vent but I didn't think you could lose all the oil out of it. If it got so hot that all the oil ran out, the PTU's probably toast.

[Linc]

Considering the miles on his vehicle and the experience I and other have had, his fluid is likely caked up inside the PTU. Might want to consider

adding the drain plug and flushing it out a few times to get that gunk out. Just a thought, but if it didn't leak out, then it is still in there, just maybe

no longer a fluid.

[dandog96]

How do I tell if the PTU is toast? Also the oil I added the other day is now visibly leaking out of the bottom of the car. Plus, when I was driving I distinctly could smell hot oil. I think the vibration did subside a little though after adding oil to the PTU. This car is turning into a bit of a nightmare lol

[Linc]

Well it certainly sounds like you have the infamous PTU leak. The job is tough, but doable and

it has probably been empty for a while. Watch this video and you will see the basics of how to fix it.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fLFFcVHptxs

 

I did mine in about 2 hours and my car only had 67k on it. If you are going to do this, you might

also consider adding a drain plug to it because they come from the factory with one unless the

car is destined for the Middle East or something like that. The following link will show you the steps

to add the PTU drain.

 

http://www.ecoboostperformanceforum.com/index.php?topic=1704.0

 

Good Luck with it. Try not to get to frustrated, it's just a car and they all need fixing.

[dandog96]

But how do I know if it's alive? If it has life in it I don't mind fixing it but is there a way to tell?

[Linc]

The only good answer to your question is to take it out and take it apart. A much larger job, but at least

you would know that it was good. And if you go that far you might as well perform a total rebuild on it once

you determine how much wear is present. My "guess" is that you would know if it was toast. Sorry that

I cannot give you the magic bullet.

[dandog96]

No, I know there is no magic bullet. I appreciate the advice though. How difficult was removing the PTU in your experience?

[Linc]

I didn't do a total removal of mine. I replaced the seals,added a drain, and did a flush and refill of the fluids. There are plenty of threads

out on the net for a total removal. Just search for Ford PTU removal or something of that nature. The repairs required a few key tools

to get it done and they were relatively inexpensive on ebay. The deflector removal tool was the one I bought twice, the first tool that

was listed for this process was junk and would not work. Also when it comes to getting parts, if you have the old style deflector you

will have to source that one separably as it no longer comes in the rebuild kit. Or at least my parts people could not find it in one.

[dpeters]

I just changed my PTU oil and when I filled it came out of the vent tube on the top for about 200 miles then stopped leaking and when I check the oil it's about 1" below the fill plug, I think that's where it's happy. If it's not making noise or leaking from the seals don't touch it. Check to see if it'coming from the top and leaking down. The vent tube is at the very top of the PTU and you cant see it but you will see if the oil coming from the top down. When I went to suck mine out it only had 150 ml left and it holds 500 ml ( I have about 130,000 KM on the car). I've had the car 6 years and every once and a while I could smell the gear oil, more so in the cold of winter. I think what happens is as the oil thickens it's force out the vent and over time it looses a small amount of oil maybe just misting, I have never had a seal leak on the PTU and I checked every time I change the engine oil.

 

I also have/had the same vibration. First time it was the drive-shaft and it's the same vibration now again. It rumbles around 35 to 40 MPH and is worst when cold. I believe it's the center support bushing softens up when warm to help isolate the vibration. The first one I had lasted 60 km and the same as this one about 70 km. I did get the revised shaft with one hanger support the first time. I'm going to try the dorman 936-811 ( a little cheaper) this time around. You can remove the shaft and drive it to see if the problem goes away before buying a shaft.

[Catimann]

Vibration is an issue I have had but it is a faint feeling so things can't be that bad yet.  I do have a smell that is generated very quickly, like inside of 2 miles.  I have read about this and seen videos that say the heat from the Cat and the lack of cooling cause the unit to degrade and fail.  I changed the oil in it (used a laboratory suction container and a shop vac.) and got out 13.5oz refilled the unit with new and put in 15 so it had to have been a bit down.  The oil that came out was black but not terrible  , didn't smell that bad, and the magnetic plug was coated but it was only about a ¼" thick.  

Now that my unit, 2008 with 75,000mi, is old and generating the "propane" smell I will be replacing it all together.  My thinking is this.  If I can get a "propane" smell it means the oil is getting darn hot and in my case very fast (inside of 2mi from a cold start.)  If it is getting this hot that fast then I think the bearings are going and generating a lot of heat.  A bad bearing will get very hot very fast.  How long it will last is dependant on how far I go each day.  I don't drive far to work, like 5 mi or less.

I do not have any leaks.

[Canadian Champ]

My 2012 fusion 3.0 sel awd shakes violently between 30-60 km/h  smoothens out after 60k , runs great at hiway speed. had some small oil leaks on driveway.took to mechanic , PTU was empty he filled it and wasnt 100% sure if it was the driveshaft , PTU or combination of both . Been 2 months and no leaks but same vibration between 30-60km/h . Don't want to start part replacement until sure.  ANYONE ELSE  have or fix same problem?

any advice?

thanks

Edited January 20 by Canadian Champ

[drolds1]

Welcome to the FFF.  You posted this in a separate thread in this forum.  Please don't create duplicate threads for the same issue.  The other post has been removed.

 

WRT your issue, if your mechanic can't determine what the problem is, I'd suggest finding another shop or a Ford dealer.  A vibration that violent shouldn't be that difficult for a competent shop to isolate.  What if it isn't the driveshaft, and you'd replaced it?  You will have wasted a lot of money. 

[WKelley]

Generally, low speed vibrations tend to be something bent/broken.  Out of balance/round tires tend to not start vibrating until 70km/h+.  Those are generalizations, you need to visually inspect lots of things.  I'd be looking to see if a belt has shifted/broken in one of the tires.

 

I agree with droids, it should not be hard for a competent mechanic to find a bad vibration at low speeds.