Disable auto start/stop possible?

[2ndNewFordGuy]

OK, I scanned this whole thread to ensure I wasn't posting something already said. THERE IS a SIMPLE EASY way to permanently disable stop-start. The only catch with this hack, is it takes out the REMOTE START feature at the same time. Which even though I rarely use the remote start, I think it's so neat put this hack back. But in case that's not a deal breaker for YOU I'll show it to you anyway.  TO THE LEFT of the BATTERY, there's a connector, on the firewall, pull that and stop-start will no  more. (as well as remote start)

There's "clip-lock" on the switch you have to lift-out with a small flat-blade screwdriver to "release" the plug,.  and then there's a lot wiggling and pulling, (WHILE you're holding the lock up), mine was a bidge to get off. when I realized this also kilt my remote start I put it back.    

pardon the picture qty it was taken as part of the battery changing process, (thank you stop-start) and just happened to capture the referenced connector. 

Full disclosure, this hack was on UTube. (But he left some stuff out. Like getting the connector off might not be a breeze. and no mention of the clip-lock.

Edited February 16, 2022 by 2ndNewFordGuy
add text under the pic

[2ndNewFordGuy]

OK so I have a basic question now, about Stop-Start. I don't know if this warrants new thread or not.

I have heard from more than one place, different supposed "experts" that when you start a car, any car, manually or auto-start, there's a "gulp" of gas, AND that gulp, depending on the car-age/technology all variables considered, that "gulp" of gas, is equivalent to, is the same amount of gas the engine needs to IDLE for, (depending the car), anywhere from, 3 to 10 minutes. SO IF true, then, let's shave another minute off that and say the 1.5L-EB is, conservatively, only "gulping" enough gas to idle for 2 minutes.  

That being the case, wouldn't it be safe to assume, that anytime, every time, stop-start stops the car for less than, (lets peal another minute off), and say, less than ONE minute, (which is 99% of the auto stops), it should actually be COSTING you gas.

OFFICIALLY the line is it's for "FUEL-efficiency, and emissions". I call BS on the former and say this is 100% about the latter. Reducing emissions in URBAN, city stop and go driving. SO if this is really the case, whether or not, this feature is worth the extra wear and tear on your STARTER, and your EXPENSIVE "AGM" battery, on top of NOT saving you any gas.... becomes seriously debatable IMHO.

Discuss. 

[Waldo]

12 hours ago, 2ndNewFordGuy said:

OK so I have a basic question now, about Stop-Start. I don't know if this warrants new thread or not.

I have heard from more than one place, different supposed "experts" that when you start a car, any car, manually or auto-start, there's a "gulp" of gas, AND that gulp, depending on the car-age/technology all variables considered, that "gulp" of gas, is equivalent to, is the same amount of gas the engine needs to IDLE for, (depending the car), anywhere from, 3 to 10 minutes. SO IF true, then, let's shave another minute off that and say the 1.5L-EB is, conservatively, only "gulping" enough gas to idle for 2 minutes.  

That being the case, wouldn't it be safe to assume, that anytime, every time, stop-start stops the car for less than, (lets peal another minute off), and say, less than ONE minute, (which is 99% of the auto stops), it should actually be COSTING you gas.

OFFICIALLY the line is it's for "FUEL-efficiency, and emissions". I call BS on the former and say this is 100% about the latter. Reducing emissions in URBAN, city stop and go driving. SO if this is really the case, whether or not, this feature is worth the extra wear and tear on your STARTER, and your EXPENSIVE "AGM" battery, on top of NOT saving you any gas.... becomes seriously debatable IMHO.

Discuss. 

 

Sorry, but your "experts" are full of BS.  The "gulp" of gas is equivalent to the amount of fuel consumed at idle in 0.6 seconds.  So any stop longer than 1 second is clearly saving gas.  And that same "gulp" produces just as much "emissions" as it would if burned while idling, so your theory doesn't make any sense.

[2ndNewFordGuy]

7 hours ago, Waldo said:

 

Sorry, but your "experts" are full of BS.  The "gulp" of gas is equivalent to the amount of fuel consumed at idle in 0.6 seconds.  So any stop longer than 1 second is clearly saving gas.  And that same "gulp" produces just as much "emissions" as it would if burned while idling, so your theory doesn't make any sense.

Thanks! Good to know. You'll notice I DID say "supposed experts" in my original post. So I'm never locked in on whatever I want to believe or heard from "Bobs-not-my-uncle-on-FB".

I DO still wonder though, why the decision was made to stop the engine after (what seems like) one second or less on the brake, rather than make it like a 3 or 4 second delay.?

Of course the gold standard would have been to make it configurable in the settings with options for 2, 5 or 7 seconds...any 2 choices greater than 0.7 seconds

Speaking of settings, why would there be a setting to "uncheck the box" and turn it off, if this isn't going to do anything different than tapping the switch on the console? Both reset-on when you start the car.

To Be Clear I'm not challenging your numbers on the gas/idle-start/gulp. But, may I ask, how you know, ""0.6 seconds" ?

thanks!

Edited February 16, 2022 by 2ndNewFordGuy

[mozz]

He just made up that number. I see the stop start as more of a nuisance than anything. Never mind the wear and tear on the starter, battery. Any saving are trivial and i can bet can not even be measured on your mpg gauge. If you are worried about a tiny fraction of saving, buy a smaller car with a smaller motor.

[Waldo]

The start-stop feature is essentially regulated by the EPA, so the way it works has to meet the definitions set out by the regulations.  The system isn't smart enough to be able to predict how long you will be stopped for, so it's designed to strike a balance between shutting off too much in stop-and-go traffic vs waiting too long and missing out on fuel savings.  It's used as an "off-cycle" credit for CAFE purposes, meaning that it doesn't directly factor into the fuel or emissions testing for any particular vehicle, but based on the number of vehicles that an OME sells that have it, they get a credit to improve their average fleet fuel economy.

 

Now a lot of people like to politicize anything that's part of a government regulation, but the facts are that it does save fuel and it does add up over the lifetime of a vehicle and over the millions of vehicles on the road.  It's also a fact that many, many people find it annoying and would gladly trade off the small amount of savings to avoid the nuisance.  But remember that every bit of fuel saved by every person in every car results in better air quality for all of us and lower fuel prices for all of us.

 

My data is not made up, it comes directly from an engineer who's career is devoted to understanding fuel economy.

[akirby]

On 2/17/2022 at 5:31 AM, mozz said:

He just made up that number. I see the stop start as more of a nuisance than anything. Never mind the wear and tear on the starter, battery. Any saving are trivial and i can bet can not even be measured on your mpg gauge. If you are worried about a tiny fraction of saving, buy a smaller car with a smaller motor.

Mine stopped working and the effect on fuel economy was noticeable - at least 1-2 mpg on my F150.  It saves about 5%.  All of the components are upgraded to handle the extra wear.   If you just leave it alone the vast majority of folks would get used to it very quickly.  But people obsess over it and decide they hate it on day 1 and never even give it a chance.

[2ndNewFordGuy]

5 hours ago, akirby said:

Mine stopped working and the effect on fuel economy was noticeable - at least 1-2 mpg on my F150.  It saves about 5%.  All of the components are upgraded to handle the extra wear.   If you just leave it alone the vast majority of folks would get used to it very quickly.  But people obsess over it and decide they hate it on day 1 and never even give it a chance.

I put up with it for 4 years before looking in to disabling it. The conclusion I've come to is I don't want to kill it. What I would pay $89 for is an "eliminator" thing that rather than kill it outright, simply added 3 or 4 second (ish) delay, as 90%+ of the stops are for less than that, that would eliminate 90% of the extra engine wear associated with starting, while at the same time KEEPING the more welcome-auto-shutdown stops of of more than 3-4 seconds.  

"All of the components are upgraded to handle the extra wear" that may be true, to a degree, but, exactly which components, exactly how, to what degree of effectiveness, not clear. What's NOT unclear, is the "extra wear"  part.

[2ndNewFordGuy]

5 hours ago, akirby said:

Mine stopped working and the effect on fuel economy was noticeable - at least 1-2 mpg on my F150.  It saves about 5%.  All of the components are upgraded to handle the extra wear.   If you just leave it alone the vast majority of folks would get used to it very quickly.  But people obsess over it and decide they hate it on day 1 and never even give it a chance.

Mine stopped working to. I was glad at the time to see it go. Turned out it stops working like that when your battery falls below a certain level. It's really a nice canary in the coal mine. Mine started fine and seemed otherwise fine, for almost 2 years with stop start not working. The second warning is when the dash displays "shutting down to preserve batter life". Replaced the battery and Stop Start popped right back on. 

[2ndNewFordGuy]

My fuel economy, according to the computer, since replacing the battery, and start stop coming back on, is not better. DOWN by at least 1 mpg. BUT the battery got replaced just as the weather was turning. So it's been almost all "winter driving" which typically means a slight drop in MPG. That said, before, 18 month avg, 28.5-29.0, so far, after, about 26-27mpg. I watch my tire pressure like a hawk and maintain the same feather-foot driving habit very consistently.

[2ndNewFordGuy]

On 2/17/2022 at 11:31 AM, mozz said:

He just made up that number. I see the stop start as more of a nuisance than anything. Never mind the wear and tear on the starter, battery. Any saving are trivial and i can bet can not even be measured on your mpg gauge. If you are worried about a tiny fraction of saving, buy a smaller car with a smaller motor.

better answer. If you're really worried about MPG and/or emissions and/or the environment, get an EV.

In less than 10 years the only IC cars available will be used and gas stations will be like finding a charging station is now.  (ok, maybe 12-13 years.)

I have NO doubt my next new car will be an EV.

[Waldo]

On 2/19/2022 at 2:37 PM, 2ndNewFordGuy said:

 

"All of the components are upgraded to handle the extra wear" that may be true, to a degree, but, exactly which components, exactly how, to what degree of effectiveness, not clear. What's NOT unclear, is the "extra wear"  part.

 

I always find it funny that this argument is so common.  We're talking about a system that STOPS the ENGINE.  How much wear is happening on your engine when it is STOPPED??  An engine that is spinning around at idle is wearing itself a whole lot more than an engine that is STOPPED.  Sure the starter sees more use, but as noted those are adjusted to compensate.  A fully warmed up engine (which is always the case when the system is used), doesn't see any significant wear from a start event, so it's really not anything anyone should worry about.

[drolds1]

WRT the starter, again, these are not conventional starters:

Quote

(1) The gear ratio from the starter-drive pinion to the flywheel ring gear is optimized to make the starter's motor turn more slowly. This can be done without materially changing the design of the transmission or flywheel at all on existing designs.

 

Crucially, this reduces starter-motor speed (in RPM), since 90 percent of starter-motor brush wear occurs not during cranking, but during the coast-down after the start has finished. If a higher-torque motor can spin more slowly, its coast-down time is shorter, increasing its longevity.
 

(2) The composition of the carbon and copper brushes on a start-stop motor differs from its traditional counterparts to increase longevity without accelerating the wear on the commutator.

 

(3) Rather than rely on oil-impregnated bushings for the rotating assemblies, start-stop starters mostly use needle bearings.

 

(4) The solenoid on start-stop starters decouples the mechanical action of engaging the drive pinion into the flywheel from the electrical action of stopping and starting the motor.

This allows for a dedicated design to turn power on and off to the motor, optimizing contact design and wear, against contacts that have to be integrated as part of a spring-loaded plunger.

This also reduces the electrical load requires to turn the engine, so that there is enough current available for accessories/lighting to operate during the start event.

 

(5) Finally, start-stop motors are integrated with other technologies that identify when each cylinder of the engine will reach top-dead center.

That lets the fuel injectors pulse and fire during the middle of a complete rotation of the crank, against having to wait for a complete revolution that lets the first cylinder reach that position to start the fuel-spark timing sequence.

 

And there you have it: the full technical explanation of why you don't need to worry about starter motors wearing out prematurely due to start-stop systems.

Source- Green Car Reports

[2ndNewFordGuy]

15 hours ago, Waldo said:

 

I always find it funny that this argument is so common.  We're talking about a system that STOPS the ENGINE.  How much wear is happening on your engine when it is STOPPED??  An engine that is spinning around at idle is wearing itself a whole lot more than an engine that is STOPPED.  Sure the starter sees more use, but as noted those are adjusted to compensate.  A fully warmed up engine (which is always the case when the system is used), doesn't see any significant wear from a start event, so it's really not anything anyone should worry about.

yes but at this point I'm talking only about stops of 2 seconds or less. If the start is generating enough energy that I can FEEL it, there's no way that's not more wear than idling for 1 second or even 2. 

respectfully.

[2ndNewFordGuy]

9 hours ago, drolds1 said:

WRT the starter, again, these are not conventional starters:

Source- Green Car Reports

EXCELLENT post. and you even noted your source. ?

You have for me successfully eliminated the starter from the chain of components potentially experiencing adverse-excess wear as a by-product of auto-stop-start.

Good info. Very informative. Thank You

[drolds1]

You're welcome.

[Waldo]

9 hours ago, 2ndNewFordGuy said:

yes but at this point I'm talking only about stops of 2 seconds or less. If the start is generating enough energy that I can FEEL it, there's no way that's not more wear than idling for 1 second or even 2. 

respectfully.

 

But what you feel is the vibrations of the engine when it's operating at lower than normal revs.  Because an engine (that's not an I6 or V12) is not perfectly balanced, it will always have a vibration when it is running.  The faster the engine turns, the higher the frequency of those vibrations.  The engine mounts can then be tuned to those frequencies of normal engine operation, but they don't necessarily work as well as the engine passes through the low rpms of startup.  So the energy that you "feel" isn't causing engine wear, it's just the natural frequency of the moving parts.

 

For reference, go try a hybrid (like my 2014 Fusion Hybrid).  It has a different type of starter motor (42V) and spins up the engine much faster.  It gets through that low rpm phase of the engine rotation so quickly that you don't feel anything at all.

[2ndNewFordGuy]

My obsessively  well-maintained Fusion has no noticeable vibrations particularly at low idle. There is a very distinctive, shudder and sound when I tap the start button. It is ALMOST, but not quite identical to the sound and vibration I feel when the auto-start re-starts the car. The auto start is, by comparison, slightly muted and about a half second shorter. For the record, I've decided I'm going to stop looking for ways to kill it. I'll tap the button as often as I think of it but otherwise I can live with it.  As they say in the military, not a hill to die on.

[akirby]

8 hours ago, 2ndNewFordGuy said:

My obsessively  well-maintained Fusion has no noticeable vibrations particularly at low idle. There is a very distinctive, shudder and sound when I tap the start button. It is ALMOST, but not quite identical to the sound and vibration I feel when the auto-start re-starts the car. The auto start is, by comparison, slightly muted and about a half second shorter. For the record, I've decided I'm going to stop looking for ways to kill it. I'll tap the button as often as I think of it but otherwise I can live with it.  As they say in the military, not a hill to die on.

All you need to do is use less brake pressure when stopping for a second or two and it won’t stop the engine.

[drolds1]

5 hours ago, akirby said:

All you need to do is use less brake pressure when stopping for a second or two and it won’t stop the engine.

...or there's this.

[2ndNewFordGuy]

On 2/23/2022 at 2:30 PM, akirby said:

All you need to do is use less brake pressure when stopping for a second or two and it won’t stop the engine.

Thanks. I'll see if I can re-create that. 

I've also noticed that if when you stop, you instantly, lift and then re-press the break, like a 'double-tap', it stays running. usually...