drolds1 Posted May 23, 2018 Share Posted May 23, 2018 12 hours ago, NCEcoBoost said: So, yesterday, Nissan, Honda and Toyota all came out reaffirming their love for sedans - a subtle riff of Ford. Then, today, Subaru comes out and says the same thing, but this time, it directly says that Ford is being stupid. Why? Because many, if not the majority of households with a CUV/SUV, also have at least one sedan as their other vehicle(s). And Ford is cutting itself out of that market completely. Foolish, they say. Internet is on fire about this. Easily 80% agree with Subaru. What's with this WSJ reporter IMing me about this thread? Anyone else get it? I haven't replied. Interesting that Subaru would take that position. For reference, Subaru sold 4200 Legacy sedans in April, which looks good on the face of it but they sold over 14,000 Outbacks which is basically the same car with a different "top hat." Just shows what the market is. Did you ever think you's\d see SUVs from Bentley, Rolls Royce and Lamborghini? And one from Ferrari is coming in late 2019. Crazy! When Porsche introduced the Cayenne, the purists went nuts but it's been a huge success. Sales have fallen off lately due it's age but the smaller Macan is now their best seller. The two utilities account for more than half of their sales. WRT second cars, I know it's only anecdotal, but friends of ours have a Honda Pilot and a Lexus RX350. Other friends have two Foresters. Another friend has a Lexus RX350 and a M-B convertible. Until recently, my son had an Explorer Sport and my daughter-in-law had a Lincoln MKC. He got rid of the Explorer and did get a sedan. My DIL still has the MKC. One sedan in the bunch. I was also contacted by Christina Rogers of the WSJ. She's an automotive reporter for the WSJ specializing in FoMoCo. I got back to her but due to a family emergency right now, I can't be available until sometime next week. I don't see any harm in this and it could be interesting. Your thoughts? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NCEcoBoost Posted May 23, 2018 Share Posted May 23, 2018 Let's just be honest for a change. Ford is cutting sedans for one reason only. To try and increase shareholder returns and bump up the share price. Will it work? Maybe, but probably not. Many posters on the internet think that lack of a reasonable long-term plan (Hackett's first attempt was laughable) will probably decrease share price. FCA, Ford and GM can't make $ selling sedans at lower volumes (notice I said lower, not Fusion-levels), unlike EVERYONE else because of one thing. Outrageous UAW wages and bennies (not necessarily in producing the vehicle in question; its a company-wide expense). Period. The UAW should have been squashed MANY years ago and we'd be WAY past this nonsense. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fusionpursuit Posted May 28, 2018 Share Posted May 28, 2018 Looks like 2019 The Fusion Sport is kinda going out with a slight bang.... for 2019. It is now fully loaded as standard, everything in all upgrade packages are now standard and the sport is now just 1 base package. gets slight rear bumper refresh and finally a black interior! Would have been a better bang if it had a 8 speed like the Edge ST. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NCEcoBoost Posted June 7, 2018 Share Posted June 7, 2018 Yep, in a brilliant move on Ford's part, they increase prices on the '19 the same week that Hyundai drops prices on the Sonata, all while adding basically the same safety equipment. Over $40K for a '19 Fusion Sport. They'll sell maybe 1K of them. If they're lucky. To stupid customers. May sales stats tell a very sorry story for the Fusion. Off 20-30% over a year ago, the biggest drop of any midsize sedan. Probably due to all the press coverage of Ford dropping sedans and folks are scared. So, does a price increase make ANY sense? Ford is so messed up these days. I just checked asking prices for '18 Fusions in my area and they are no bargain. WAY more than last year and above a lot of the competition. Guess not much in the way of incentives, either. Even more "brilliant". 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted June 7, 2018 Share Posted June 7, 2018 So if they're actually losing money on Fusion sedans, why would they want to discount them even more so they can sell more and lose even more money? At some point you have to hold your ground on pricing and live with lower volumes. Fusion has been around 15K for the last several months - it didn't just drop. Besides - there is no competitor for the Fusion Sport in the midsized arena. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ziggy Posted June 7, 2018 Share Posted June 7, 2018 So I wanted to post some stats here to add to this discussion: Car Sales in 2017/2018 https://www.statista.com/statistics/204354/us-light-vehicle-sales-in-september-2011-by-company/ Car sales in Canada (Where I am): https://www.statista.com/statistics/451443/canadian-monthly-vehicle-sales-by-brand/ Fusion sales: http://carsalesbase.com/us-car-sales-data/ford/ford-fusion/ These numbers ARE NOT BAD the problem with James Hackett, CEO of Ford is that the fusion was at the end of its product cycle. He needed a refresh, instead, he let the generation go on longer than it should than scrapped it. I guarantee you with the right marketing, value, engineering and features the Fusion sedan could easily be the top mid-sized SUV that Canada/USA wants. but to bow out completely? this might have a chain reaction, where people won't even turn to ford for trucks, Mustang only edges out the challenger and Camaro. there are better SUVs on the market, Ecoboost is not a favorite of mine, but if i had to choose in that segment, easily go with the HRV. If someone said small SUV, I would easily go with an x1 28i. I wish I just stayed german, we have a BMW and used to have golf, both are excellent and ahead of their times. PUT ME IN COACH, PUT ME IN. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted June 7, 2018 Share Posted June 7, 2018 I understand the theory on chain reactions affecting other products but I don't think we're seeing that in today's market. The current Fusion is still very competitive but it looks just like it did 6 years ago and people want something different. They could update it and get back to 20K-25K unit sales but it appears that most of those sales are cheaper models with pretty thin profit margins and huge price wars with the other mfrs. Ford has other things they would rather invest in with those resources. Whether that proves out or not will take a couple of years to play out. But it's certainly more complicated than just killing Fusion. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NCEcoBoost Posted June 7, 2018 Share Posted June 7, 2018 5 hours ago, akirby said: So if they're actually losing money on Fusion sedans, why would they want to discount them even more so they can sell more and lose even more money? At some point you have to hold your ground on pricing and live with lower volumes. Fusion has been around 15K for the last several months - it didn't just drop. Besides - there is no competitor for the Fusion Sport in the midsized arena. I'd say the new Kia Stinger is competition. Yes, I got my '17 SE with Tech and 1.5L last summer for $15K. Same vehicle, here and at other nearby dealerships. is $19.5K right now. I still think Ford is faking the losing $ bit. Platform is paid for. There is no way everyone else can make $ and Ford lose $. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted June 8, 2018 Share Posted June 8, 2018 2 hours ago, NCEcoBoost said: I'd say the new Kia Stinger is competition. Yes, I got my '17 SE with Tech and 1.5L last summer for $15K. Same vehicle, here and at other nearby dealerships. is $19.5K right now. I still think Ford is faking the losing $ bit. Platform is paid for. There is no way everyone else can make $ and Ford lose $. Stinger starts at $40K with AWD and tops out at $50K. Fusion Sport starts around $32K. Nobody said Ford wasn’t making any money on Fusion. They’re just not making anywhere close to the 8% target they’ve set for the company as a whole. Considering most sales are lower priced SE models and the factory isn’t running close to full capacity and they’re having to put big cash on the hood to match Camry and others it’s not hard to believe the profit margins are razor thin right now. If Ford had none of these other things going on with EVs, new hybrid utilities and autonomous vehicles and management platforms they wouldn’t be touching Fusion. It’s just a prioritization problem and Fusion doesn’t make it above the line on the priority list. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NCEcoBoost Posted June 9, 2018 Share Posted June 9, 2018 On 6/7/2018 at 10:05 PM, akirby said: Stinger starts at $40K with AWD and tops out at $50K. Fusion Sport starts around $32K. Nobody said Ford wasn’t making any money on Fusion. They’re just not making anywhere close to the 8% target they’ve set for the company as a whole. Considering most sales are lower priced SE models and the factory isn’t running close to full capacity and they’re having to put big cash on the hood to match Camry and others it’s not hard to believe the profit margins are razor thin right now. If Ford had none of these other things going on with EVs, new hybrid utilities and autonomous vehicles and management platforms they wouldn’t be touching Fusion. It’s just a prioritization problem and Fusion doesn’t make it above the line on the priority list. 2019 Fusion Sport starts just above $40K. As I and others have said ad infinitum, Ford has a priority problem. The stuff in your list above are mostly non-sellers. Again (for the last time), the 5-year plan is a joke. I'm surprised that all of the negative comments from readers on the Net in blog forums haven't resulted in a petition to can Hackett. So far anyway. Tomorrow's always another day... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NCEcoBoost Posted June 9, 2018 Share Posted June 9, 2018 Since most of the "news" in this forum is not recent news, here's a link to one of the 2019 Fusion price increase articles: https://www.carscoops.com/2018/05/2019-ford-fusion-jumps-price-6190/ Yes, it's the Sport that gets the $6190 price increase, hence my comment about it being a stupid purchase above. I forget that many of you are not Internet news hounds like me and rely on this space for news. Not a great idea... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drolds1 Posted June 9, 2018 Share Posted June 9, 2018 If you compare 2018 prices with options to 2019 with the same options, now standard equipment, there's actually a price decrease. That said, some buyers don't want to be forced to pay for things they may not want. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted June 10, 2018 Share Posted June 10, 2018 We know all about the change in standard equipment and the reduction in orderable combinations. Calling it a price increase is ridiculous when the same vehicle optioned the same way is the same price or cheaper. What it should have stated is that the BASE price increased. But that’s not as newsworthy. For the few people who wanted a base Sport it sucks, but I suspect the vast majority of sports were fully loaded anyway. As for Ford’s future plan, they’ll be way ahead of the competition on hybrid vehicles especially hybrid and plug in hybrid utilities plus F150 and mustang. In addition to the autonomous vehicles they’re building a management platform that everyone can use to manage their autonomous fleet - in other words they’re diversifying. The platform will probably make more money than the AVs themselves. And it doesn’t matter so much about the sales volume - what matters is the profit margin. The goal is 8% and you won’t get that on Focus and Fusion sedans. They’d rather sell 175000 vehicles at a 8% margin than 225000 at a 4% margin. You may or may not agree with that strategy but if that’s the strategy then they are actually prioritizing their investments correctly. Whether that pays off in the long run is a bit of a gamble but I don’t think anyone would say that EVs, AVs and hybrids aren’t a good place to invest. They were way ahead on the ecoboost engines and now the other mfrs are just starting to catch up. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted June 10, 2018 Share Posted June 10, 2018 Re: Stinger: It still tops out at $50K while the 2019 Fusion Sport tops out at $40K. There is nothing else that competes with the Fusion Sport in that price range. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NCEcoBoost Posted June 11, 2018 Share Posted June 11, 2018 The Sport is still a dumb purchase given the plummeting resale values of Fusions following Hackett's plan. So is anything pricier than an SE, IMO. Other than auto shows, I've NEVER laid eyes on either a Sport or Platinum, so I guess it's a moot point. Since the Stinger starts at $32K, I'm sure you can get a comparable version to the Sport for $40K. Probably not the humongous discount that Fusions will command next model year however. Yeah, OK, if you can get $15-20K off a Sport, then it's not such a dumb purchase. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted June 11, 2018 Share Posted June 11, 2018 Stinger may start at $32K but that's with the 2.0L engine. It's $40K for the 3.3L GTDI version which is comparable to the sport and that's without any of the standard equipment that the Sport already includes at $40K. Apples to apples it's at least $8K - $10K more for the Stinger. Right now there is only $2750 incentives on the Fusion Sport - probably because there aren't that many of them in inventory. I'm not saying it's a good buy or a bad buy. Resale hasn't been great even before they made the announcement. But in the context of head to head performance and pricing the Fusion Sport is unique - way more performance than most midsized sedans and cheaper than the RWD competition. Nobody is buying Fusion Titaniums anyway - they're buying cheap SEs and that's what dealers are stocking because that's what customers are buying. That's the problem. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drolds1 Posted June 11, 2018 Share Posted June 11, 2018 3 hours ago, akirby said: Nobody is buying Fusion Titaniums anyway - they're buying cheap SEs and that's what dealers are stocking because that's what customers are buying. That's the problem. They dropped the Platinum for 2019. It was similar in content to the European Mondeo Vignale. It works in Europe because they don't sell the MKZ there. I never saw one, even at the dealer. The Titanium is back to top-of-the line. The SE with Luxury Package is replaced by SEL 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted June 11, 2018 Share Posted June 11, 2018 Art - I looked at the order guide when they brought out the Platinum. It was just a fully loaded Titanium with most of the options standard. It did not have all the options that the Vignale has on the Mondeo - a lot of those are Lincoln only options in North America like adaptive suspension and LED headlamps (not available on Platinum/Titanium). 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drolds1 Posted June 12, 2018 Share Posted June 12, 2018 12 hours ago, akirby said: Art - I looked at the order guide when they brought out the Platinum. It was just a fully loaded Titanium with most of the options standard. It did not have all the options that the Vignale has on the Mondeo - a lot of those are Lincoln only options in North America like adaptive suspension and LED headlamps (not available on Platinum/Titanium). True, the Platinum has every option on top of the Titanium but there are some subtle differences, i.e., polished aluminum wheels and an upgraded interior with premium leather and quilted bolsters and door panels. LED headlights are standard equipment on the Platinum (and Titanium). See here under 'Exterior Features'. IDK exactly what comes on the Mondeo Vignale that isn't available on the Platinum. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted June 12, 2018 Share Posted June 12, 2018 It used to have the CCD suspension and adaptive LEDs which (at the time a few years ago) were exclusive to the MKZ and not available on Fusion. They added LEDs to Fusion but they're not Adaptive so not sure if that's still a difference or just wording. Vignale does have better leather than Fusion. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NCEcoBoost Posted June 20, 2018 Share Posted June 20, 2018 The Ford news just continues to keep coming. At a press event for the Corktown Rail Depot opening, Bill Ford stated that Hackett is "really good for the company". Sounds like he's in defensive mode. Wait until he sees the absolutely blistering (in a bad way) editorial about Ford dropping cars in this month's (July issue) of Car&Driver. Scathing might be a better word. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted June 20, 2018 Share Posted June 20, 2018 Why would Ford care what some yahoo at C&D thinks about their business decisions? Especially one that starts with "CAR".... Whether Hackett's plan works or not is TBD but success will be measured by profit margin and total profit not by sales volume. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NCEcoBoost Posted June 21, 2018 Share Posted June 21, 2018 18 hours ago, akirby said: Why would Ford care what some yahoo at C&D thinks about their business decisions? Especially one that starts with "CAR".... Whether Hackett's plan works or not is TBD but success will be measured by profit margin and total profit not by sales volume. It's not some uninformed yahoo. It's the editorial. Car&Driver and Motor Trend are VERY much respected. You're just totally uninformed. Beginning to wonder why you're a moderator. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted June 21, 2018 Share Posted June 21, 2018 I didn't say they were uninformed. But in terms of the car buying public, 99.99% of them don't know these magazines exist and don't care about them or any other online reviews. If online reviews/editorials had any effect on car sales then Camry would not have been the #1 seller for so many years. C&D is heavily biased towards performance cars. Of course they're not going to like this. But that's not going to matter to folks who are buying Ford trucks and utilities and vans and "active" vehicles. Motor Trend is a joke. Their "OTY" awards are bought and paid for (indirectly) and mean nothing, especially since they only consider new vehicles. None of these magazines/internet blogs/websites have any appreciable effect on sales which is why Ford stopped catering to them years ago. And just because someone is an "editor" doesn't mean much. I remember arguing with the Editor in Chief of Edmunds.com (another "respected" website") about why the Jaguar based V8 in the Lincoln LS was 3.9L while the Jag version was 4.0L. He claimed that Ford couldn't do math and couldn't decide whether it was 3.9 or 4.0. I explained that the Ford engine had a smaller stroke by a couple of mm which changed the displacement. He said that didn't make sense. Which is like saying that it doesn't make sense that a tall glass would hold more water than a smaller glass. What does the C&D editor know about Ford's business plan? If Ford can get a 8% margin with utilities, hybrids, plug in hybrids, ranger/bronco, EVs and autonomous vehicles but can only get a 2% margin with cars and in order to do all those higher margin products means cutting cars in the short term, then you can't say that's a bad plan from a business perspective. It may not be popular with car fans but it's not Ford's job to please people it's their job to make money. So I'm far from uninformed. As for being a moderator, all moderators are just regular members who also deal with spam and personal attacks when necessary. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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