allen84 Posted February 5, 2019 Share Posted February 5, 2019 So today was unseasonably warm. It reached a high of 12 C (53.6 F), after a few minutes of driving, and while applying the breaks approaching every stop light, and coming to a complete stop, the engine shuts off, and stay on EV mode. That's all it can do. As soon as I let go of the brake pedal, the engine immediately comes on. I still can't coast or press the gas lightly on EV mode, as the green outline box, never expands. The red line just sits above the green outline. We'll see what happens when it reaches near 20 C+ mark. I have a feeling it might start to functioning properly. If it does, then there is definitely something wrong with temp sensors or whatever it is, that's instructing the hybrid system to operate the way I was used to. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WalterTA Posted February 5, 2019 Share Posted February 5, 2019 65 degrees F here yesterday. No improvement... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ICEY Posted February 5, 2019 Share Posted February 5, 2019 All tests of my temp sensors indicated that they were fine. Ford Hotline engineers are now suggesting that there is a possibility that my issues are ABS related and Ford tech is checking ABS sensors and controllers. They named the proper names but, sorry, i can not recall specifics. This may make sense since as soon as foot comes off break pedal the gas engine starts right up. Maybe brake related ??? Stayed tuned folks I’ll advise outcome. Steve 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WalterTA Posted February 5, 2019 Share Posted February 5, 2019 40 minutes ago, ICEY said: All tests of my temp sensors indicated that they were fine. Ford Hotline engineers are now suggesting that there is a possibility that my issues are ABS related and Ford tech is checking ABS sensors and controllers. They named the proper names but, sorry, i can not recall specifics. This may make sense since as soon as foot comes off break pedal the gas engine starts right up. Maybe brake related ??? Stayed tuned folks I’ll advise outcome. Steve Brake related... Now, that sort of does make sense. Let us know!!! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jzavadil Posted February 8, 2019 Author Share Posted February 8, 2019 It has been in the 70s during the day for the last 3 days. Car will now only go into EV with the brake pedal pressed moderately. If I am coming to a stop, the engine will shutoff when I apply the brakes, then as I feather the brakes when I am almost stopped, the engine will start up again, then turn off when I fully apply the brakes at a stop. Really annoying. I think the problem is getting worse, previously at these temperatures the engine would shift to EV on its own when conditions warranted, now it is only shifting when I apply the brakes. YouTube Video showing the problem - temperature was 73F when filmed earlier today. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WalterTA Posted February 8, 2019 Share Posted February 8, 2019 Thanks for posting the video. I thought it was my car! Same thing here and it was about 72 F yesterday. Ugh! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bangster Posted February 8, 2019 Share Posted February 8, 2019 If the temperature symbol doesn't turn green that means it won't go into EV mode, right? Only on "silent start" will the ICE engine not start up with the temperature symbol white, but after than it will always run the ICE because it doesn't see the hybrid temperature up to temp. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bangster Posted February 9, 2019 Share Posted February 9, 2019 (edited) I haven't spent enough time driving one, but I tried to learn all I could because I really want to find one for my son (well, for me, but using him as an excuse...), and I wonder if there was a software update that made the temp think not turn green? I was pretty sure I saw it happen, as it was something I was on the lookout for. Like in this video (at 1:45ish): I guess it is because of the different in Enlighten vs Empower mode, and it only goes green in Empower and not Enlighten, which is what you are using. Edited February 9, 2019 by bangster 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jzavadil Posted February 9, 2019 Author Share Posted February 9, 2019 Correct, only goes green in Empower (most info mode). I normally drive in Enlighten (where it stays white), but I have verified that it goes green as expected in Empower. Says the system is ready for hybrid ops, but it doesn't shift. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lolder Posted February 10, 2019 Share Posted February 10, 2019 Make sure you're in "D" not "L". 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lolder Posted February 10, 2019 Share Posted February 10, 2019 (edited) I see you were in "D". The following may cause the ICE to run: 1: Low HVB 2: HVB reconditioning ( 2010-12 ) 3: Evaporative emmissions check at start up 4: Speed over 46-62-86 mph depending on model and software. 5: Higher power demand such as acceleration 6: Cabin heater demand 7: Warmup of catalytic converter when cold and speed above 12 mph. ( 2010-12 ) 8: Use of "L" gear 9: The ICE is motorized with no fuel flow when coasting down steep hills and speed exceeds 46 mph or at any speed while brake depressed and HVB becomes full. For instance if you are coasting at 60 mph and put on the brake, when regen is not sufficient the brake pedal will call for higher motorizing rpm for compression or "jack" braking. I think these problems may be due to HVB degeneration due to shorted cells. Edited February 10, 2019 by lolder 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jzavadil Posted February 11, 2019 Author Share Posted February 11, 2019 Appreciate the detailed post. I'm going to address it point by point, not to disagree with what you are saying, but to try to eliminate possibilities and maybe?? focus in on the cause. I have attached scans of the troubleshooting communications between my dealer (who had the car for three weeks) and the Ford "hotline". 1. The HVB is topped off according to my instrument cluster (see video above). Has been full or close to full ever since this problem started - one of the things that helped me determine that I had a problem. 2. Understand, but this has been going on for about 6 months - don't think HVB reconditioning takes that long. 3. Same as #2 4. Understand, problem is when car is below 47 mph (2010 model) 5. Understand, even when coasting the ICE continues to run (again, see video above) 6. Securing heater/fan doesn't make it better. In Ford communications, they also discuss extra electrical load due to accessories (I assume they are talking about GPS, cell phones...) - I don't have anything extra plugged in to the car. 7. Still happens when car is fully warmed up. Went on a 1 hour trip on the freeway this weekend; when slowing down car still has the issue. 8. Never use L. 9. Did not know this, but when I depress the brake pedal below 47 mph it seems to encourage EV operations, even with a full battery and regen indicated. For a short time, I could get the car to go into EV mode by pressing the brake pedal and it would stay in EV after releasing the brake pedal - but this is no longer happening - when I release the brake pedal the ICE immediately restarts, even with no load on the engine (not pressing accelerator). Last comment - On the attached document (best as I understand it), the dealer spent a lot of time doing procedures on the HVB, but it was never suggested to me that the HVB was a problem or might need to be replaced. I would replace the HVB if someone could tell me that it was the problem. I'm in Cary, NC in case anyone wants to meet and compare cars... Fusion Troubleshooting.pdf 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Automate Posted February 11, 2019 Share Posted February 11, 2019 @jzavadil, Thanks very much for posting the Fusion Troubleshooting.pdf. It is very informative and I'm having the same problem. Do you have copies of the jpg files mentioned on the last page? Also some of the text in the upper right hand corner of the last page is blacked out. Do you have a better copy of this page? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ICEY Posted February 11, 2019 Share Posted February 11, 2019 Wel, my dealer tested ABS contrôler and all ok. They reprogrammed it just in case. They also reprogrammed the hybrid battery but nothing has changed. Still same problem as when I brought it in. They will contact Ford hotline to see what is next. I think it is the hybrid battery as do other posts but Ford doesn’t want to replace under warranty it seems. Will talk with them later today or tomorrow. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jzavadil Posted February 11, 2019 Author Share Posted February 11, 2019 @Automate - Sorry, my copy also has the blacked out region and I don't have the jpg files. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lolder Posted February 11, 2019 Share Posted February 11, 2019 It may not be the HVB but some sensor. There is more than one place for service personnel to check for trouble codes (DTCs) and dealers sometimes are not familiar with them. There were only 70,000 of these cars made between Ford, Lincoln and Mercury between 2010 and 2012. The earlier Ford Escape hybrids and 2013 + hybrids are different cars. Get Ford engineering to find the problem. Easier said than done. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ICEY Posted February 12, 2019 Share Posted February 12, 2019 INFORMATION: I spoke to a relative who works in the automotive industry and told him of my problem. He contacted a guy who is in charge of the hybrid vehicles in a city( not going to name city) that my relative deals with. This guy says that the problem is in the hybrid battery and said it was either Cell#4 or Cell #7 that is causing the problems. Have no idea how many cells comprise these hybrid batteries. When the car goes into hybrid mode at a stop, for example, and you take your foot off the brake to drive in hybrid mode that detected “load” on the hybrid battery is detected by the hybrid system and because of one of the cells mentioned above being bad the system shuts down hybrid mode and defaults to the ICE. That in order for a diagnostic trouble code DTC to show up it has to do that five or so times in a hour. I’ll mention this to my dealer but I suspect they are going to chalk it up to “normal wear and tear” and not do a heck of a lot. I may also talk with Ford customer care. Don’t know number off hand but it is in owners manual some place. Another point of contact, for me anyway is, is California 's Bureau of Automotive Repair. Hope me this helps. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eGuru Posted February 12, 2019 Share Posted February 12, 2019 Even 1 bad cell in the HVB will severely limit the amount of energy that the battery can deliver. Measuring individual cell voltages after charging may not identify the cells that are weak. The measurements need to be performed while the HVB has a load. For those vehicles that are nearing the end of the 8 or 10 year warranty period, you can bet that Ford will stall and not find any HVB issue until the warranty expires (and even then it is not in their interest to admit to an issue). 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markwilson66 Posted February 12, 2019 Share Posted February 12, 2019 Add me to the list of owners here with the same issue. My local dealer in SJC said this was a "normal characteristic of vehicle". I started this thread on another forum back in December 2018, http://fordfusionhybridforum.com/topic/12638-wont-run-in-ev-mode-ice-kicks-in-immediately/ 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lolder Posted February 15, 2019 Share Posted February 15, 2019 There are 204 ( 207? ) cells in series in the 2010-12 hybrids. Shorting one cell does not make a big effect. Several more reduces the voltage which directly affects the max EV speed. Capacity (energy) is reduced proportionately, i.e. 2 cells shorted reduce capacity 1%. If cells are shorted the periodic reconditioning probably does not occur further compromising the battery. The only thing the car cannot continue with is an open cell. This is NOT a "normal characteristic". They're blowing you off like they've done with the 2013+ transmission defects. They're getting out of the car business so they don't care. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eGuru Posted February 15, 2019 Share Posted February 15, 2019 1 hour ago, lolder said: There are 204 ( 207? ) cells in series in the 2010-12 hybrids. Shorting one cell does not make a big effect. Several more reduces the voltage which directly affects the max EV speed. Capacity (energy) is reduced proportionately, i.e. 2 cells shorted reduce capacity 1%. If cells are shorted the periodic reconditioning probably does not occur further compromising the battery. The only thing the car cannot continue with is an open cell. This is NOT a "normal characteristic". They're blowing you off like they've done with the 2013+ transmission defects. They're getting out of the car business so they don't care. As stated the cells can fail "shorted" or "open circuit". Additionally a cell may become high impedance and therefore limit the current supply/acceptance capability of the battery pack. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lolder Posted February 15, 2019 Share Posted February 15, 2019 (edited) If it is open or high impedance the car will not run at all. A functioning HVB that can still start the ICE with MG1, the transmission control motor/generator and provide power to it for power/torque distribution is required. Only completely shorted cells are somewhat tolerated. The HVB operates over a range from about 245 to 285 volts. It loses only 1.4 v for each shorted cell. There is a voltage booster also. The traction motor MG2 produces a back EMF ( voltage ) that is proportional to it's ( and car's ) speed which impedes current created by the applied voltage. As the HVB voltage drops, the max EV speed decreases. The total energy capacity drops proportional to the shorted cells but the max EV speed drops faster. I think for the ICE to not run only when a foot is on the brake is something else. Edited February 15, 2019 by lolder 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeL Posted March 6, 2019 Share Posted March 6, 2019 I read a boat load of examples where Fusion Hybrid Owners had EV issues and took their vehicles to Ford with bad results. My experience was a little different. My issue as previously reported was with the EV. When the ambient temperature dropped below 50 degrees the vehicle would not enter into EV mode except when stopping. As soon as I let my foot off the brake it auto started the motor bypassing the EV mode. Nominally the car would move in EV mode whenever I released the brake. So clearly there was a malfunction. I took it to a neighboring Ford Dealer Echelon Ford Stratford NJ. My local dealer charged more for diagnostics and was setting appointments two months out. These guys had me in the next day. After 6 days of being w/o my car due to various reasons it is now fixed. The process is called "Balancing the battery" obviously the "battery" is the Hybrid battery. But to do the EV battery test they needed to put in a fully functional 12 V car battery. That set me back $155 and I also needed Freon. From that point the car had to be warm to do the test [ test is to confirm or deny that the EV battery is functional] Not cabin warm EV battery warm. 50 degrees. So they stored it in the body shop overnight and completed the process in morning. I am happy to report it is fixed and back to the normal EV functions. It was 21 degrees this morning and after it got to operational temperatures it reverted to EV operations. Total including seriously high taxes [ after all it is NJ] I paid $427.00 Hopefully this helps other Hybrid owners. Best to you all. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markwilson66 Posted March 6, 2019 Share Posted March 6, 2019 Thanks @MikeL, that's useful information. Have you noticed any changes to your MPG since the rebalancing? Are you able to sustain a speed of 40mph in EV mode? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WalterTA Posted March 6, 2019 Share Posted March 6, 2019 Is there any way to cause the car to rebalance the batteries? I know that way back my car's ICE would rev and run only on the ICE for about 50 miles or so. I understood that this was it's way of doing a self-rebalance. Is there any way to trigger this? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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