Special K Posted March 26, 2019 Share Posted March 26, 2019 I have a 2006 Ford Fusion SE I4 with 163,000 miles. Two weeks ago I took it to the dealership for some suspension work I knew it needed (new struts and sway bars). Right as I was getting out of the car to drop it off, the wrench/transmission light came on, so I asked the service rep to have that diagnosed first before proceeding with the suspension work. When the dealership called me back, they told me they pulled multiple transmission codes from the car. They were vague regarding the exact problem and told me diagnosis and repair would be a very time-consuming and expensive process and would likely require the rebuilding of my entire transmission. They then told me this process would likely not be worth it given the age and value of my car. When I tried to pin them down on the exact problem, the most they could say was that the car was making odd noises when stopped during their test drive (“odd noises” may not have been their exact terminology, but it amounted to some noise that was subtle enough I hadn’t noticed it myself). When I asked them what the consequences of not repairing the transmission would be, they said the engine might die when the car was stopped. They said this problem may not occur for weeks or even months, but was basically inevitable at this point unless the transmission was rebuilt. I declined all further repairs and took my car home. Not only did the dealership dissuade me from further transmission diagnosis/repair, but they also didn't even attempt to sell me on a new/used car, which seemed odd to me. I've been driving this car daily for the past 2 weeks and haven't noticed anything different. The transmission light hasn't come on again. At this point I'm not sure what to do. I don't want to sink any more money into the Fusion if the transmission is going to give out soon, but if the transmission is not near death then I'd rather not buy a new car right now and would proceed with the repairs to the suspension. I called a local shop and asked about getting a second opinion, but they told me if the transmission light wasn't currently on, there would be no way for them to pull the codes and proceed with diagnostics. Their advice was to just keep driving it and bring it in if the light comes on again. What do you think? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bangster Posted March 26, 2019 Share Posted March 26, 2019 Did you pay a diagnostic fee? If so they should provide you with the codes instead of vague answers. If they didn't charge the fee, I guess they really don't owe you them. Maybe try to see if the codes are still pending or in the history by getting them pulled? There are some specific ones for solenoids, and I think that if left in a bad state long enough bad solenoids can take out the TCM. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Special K Posted March 26, 2019 Author Share Posted March 26, 2019 6 minutes ago, bangster said: Did you pay a diagnostic fee? If so they should provide you with the codes instead of vague answers. If they didn't charge the fee, I guess they really don't owe you them. Maybe try to see if the codes are still pending or in the history by getting them pulled? There are some specific ones for solenoids, and I think that if left in a bad state long enough bad solenoids can take out the TCM. If the problem was still present, wouldn't the light just come back on again and trigger the code again? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Special K Posted March 27, 2019 Author Share Posted March 27, 2019 23 hours ago, bangster said: Did you pay a diagnostic fee? If so they should provide you with the codes instead of vague answers. If they didn't charge the fee, I guess they really don't owe you them. Maybe try to see if the codes are still pending or in the history by getting them pulled? There are some specific ones for solenoids, and I think that if left in a bad state long enough bad solenoids can take out the TCM. I went to an Advance Auto Parts and was able to pull the codes off the TCM. Here is what was returned: P0772 shift solenoid E stuck on P0742 torque converter clutch solenoid circuit stuck on The P0772 had status of "pending" and the AAP employee told me the P0742 was a false code and was only on because it shared a wire or communication link with the P0772 code. The AAP employee told me I should bring my car to a transmission shop for further diagnosis. He said the repair could run anywhere from $500 (solenoid replacement only) to $2500+ (replacement of all sensors, switches, gears, etc., basically a full transmission rebuild). Based on the above am I better off just getting a new car? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sirtanon Posted March 27, 2019 Share Posted March 27, 2019 Any shop that tries to tell you something is wrong with the trans, tells you it will be expensive, but can't or won't give you anything specific is, at the very least, sketchy in my book. I'd go elsewhere. Regarding the codes, and the fact that they have not returned in the 2 weeks since, I'd say that they could have been false positives, or just one-offs. Keep in mind, if the shop did suspension work, depending on what they messed with, they could have unplugged a connector or even jostled something loose while moving parts around, which could have caused these to trigger the one time. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bangster Posted March 27, 2019 Share Posted March 27, 2019 If it was a temporary issue and no drivability concerns and no CEL or wrench light, then sure, it might be a one time hiccup, but how often does that occur. It happened before the car entered the garage to be worked on, during normal driving. It seems more like a counter man giving an opinion than a seasoned transmission guy, but honestly transmission shops have 2 modes, full rebuild with soft parts, or full rebuild with some hard parts replaced, maybe a fluid exchange or change. Doesn't the FNR5 have a drain pan? Doesn't that then put the valve body accessible, and at least the shift solenoids accessible to change and around 30 a piece? Doesn't it use a specific FNR5 fluid that is around $6 a quart and at most use 7 quarts (which is likely dry fill, and only needs 3 or 4)? I don't know if fluid contamination could cause these solenoids to appear stuck open, I know in my older cars with a tach I could check the TC lockup by watching tach while cruising, pressing brake to unlock TC, and the RPMs go up a couple 100 rpms. Still don't know the strategy that SSE controls, but it should be out there (like if off and SSF on command 4th gear, etc). 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nanookvd Posted March 27, 2019 Share Posted March 27, 2019 I am having issue with the Wrench Light as well on my 2009 Mercury Milan. I have posted under the FNR5 transmission issues post under General PowerTrain. The Ford Dealership spend 4 hours trying to troubleshoot the reason. My only symptoms are P0745 code and a hard shift into Reverse. The dealer performed a pin test on all the solenoids from the connecting cable so you can check the solenoid resistance specs without removing the transmission pan. They also checked the wiring harness. All checked OK. I replaced the TCM from a donor car but it only repaired the problem temporarily. I am left with a pristine car with 130k miles on it that runs perfectly except for this issue. Value of the car is about $5k. Putting in a rebuilt transmission would cost ~ $ 3.5k from an independent, ~$ 5k from the dealer. There is nothing mechanically wrong with the transmission. It is only electronic. At this point, dealer says to just drive it and if anything changes, get back in touch. A couple questions I have: 1. I am curious if the PCM (ECM) or TB could be causing the above to occur? 2. What electronics are in the transmission? I've already changed the Pressure Control Solenoid "A" and the "A" and "B" shift solenoids with no success. Are there any other electronics in the transmission or is it just the solenoids? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eGuru Posted March 27, 2019 Share Posted March 27, 2019 There are only solenoids in the transmission. I assume that you have already changed the fluid when you changed the 3 solenoids. You might find this thread interesting reading. It covers some troubleshooting steps/methods that you might find useful in your troubleshooting efforts (even though the error code in the thread is different). https://www.fordfusionclub.com/203-engine-amp%3B-drivetrain/754746-bad-transmission-control-module-tcm-2008-fusion.html 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nanookvd Posted March 28, 2019 Share Posted March 28, 2019 Thank you for the link to that exhaustive attempt to solve this issue. I reached out to him so hopefully he can share a little bit more of his experience in fixing the problem. i did change the fluid, whatever was in the pan when I removed it. I replaced with Idemitsu TLS. The conclusion appears to be replacing the main and secondary valve bodies. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bangster Posted March 28, 2019 Share Posted March 28, 2019 55 minutes ago, nanookvd said: Thank you for the link to that exhaustive attempt to solve this issue. I reached out to him so hopefully he can share a little bit more of his experience in fixing the problem. i did change the fluid, whatever was in the pan when I removed it. I replaced with Idemitsu TLS. The conclusion appears to be replacing the main and secondary valve bodies. Is using the fluid for the 6 speed AISIN transmission instead of the FNR5 specific fluid supposed to help or be better, or are they the same, because I don't think they are. I4 has the 5 speed FNR5 that uses FNR5 fluid. V6 has the 6 speed that uses the T-IV fluid. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Special K Posted March 28, 2019 Author Share Posted March 28, 2019 I took my car to a transmission shop and the diagnosis was a torque converter partial lockup; their conclusion was the same as the dealership's, i.e. either fully rebuild the transmission or start looking for a new car, but at least they were able to explain to me in much more detail what the problem was. They said that the problem was in its early stages, but eventual failure was inevitable. At this point I'm just going to start looking for a new car. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nanookvd Posted March 28, 2019 Share Posted March 28, 2019 Bangster - I chose the TLS based upon Idemitsu's website for the vehicle. As far as I know, it meets or exceeds Type M. It drives/shifts the same. Please correct me if I am wrong though and what the proper fluid is for the FNR5. Special K - I didn't see what symptoms your car is experiencing, transmission type, etc. I am unsure of the symptoms of a partial torque converter lockup. There are codes in the TCM that may point to that in your case. I am still on the fence, hoping to get some more answers. I may replace the valve bodies and see if that is the solution. Even at $5k for a rebuilt transmission, its still cheaper than 48 months or more of car payments, higher insurance rates, etc. Body is perfect with no rust. The risk is something else going wrong with the car or insurance totaling it for a low dollar amount in the event of an accident. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Special K Posted March 28, 2019 Author Share Posted March 28, 2019 1 minute ago, nanookvd said: Special K - I didn't see what symptoms your car is experiencing, transmission type, etc. I am unsure of the symptoms of a partial torque converter lockup. There are codes in the TCM that may point to that in your case. Right now there are no symptoms other than the transmission light that came on once a couple weeks ago and hasn't come on again since. The transmission is an FNR5 according to the report from the transmission shop. The codes present were: P0772 : shift solenoid stuck on P0742 : torque converter clutch solenoid circuit stuck on 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bangster Posted March 28, 2019 Share Posted March 28, 2019 (edited) 44 minutes ago, nanookvd said: Bangster - I chose the TLS based upon Idemitsu's website for the vehicle. As far as I know, it meets or exceeds Type M. It drives/shifts the same. Please correct me if I am wrong though and what the proper fluid is for the FNR5. The Type M does, yes, but I don't think the Type TLS does. I don't know what, if any issues it might cause, I just know that you take a decent performing transmission and you can junk it, let alone starting with a marginal one, if they really really really are not compatible, like older generation using Ford Type F in Mercon cars, or Mercon LV instead of Mercon V. If it suggested TLS T-IV for a 5 speed equipped I4 Fusion/Milan, it is wrong, if it was for the V6, then it was right, or if it didn't make a distinction then it was lacking information. It is too bad they show both for both engines, when they shouldn't. https://www.idemitsulubricants.com/idemitsu/atf/type-tls is T-IV that some 6 speeds use (early V6 cars, then the Sports/MKZ) https://www.idemitsulubricants.com/idemitsu/atf/type-m is M/M5/M-V that is what the FNR5 uses (check your dipstick, you will see M-V on it). This is not Mercon V (which some abbreviate MV). Edited March 28, 2019 by bangster 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eGuru Posted March 28, 2019 Share Posted March 28, 2019 I am baffled about why one would introduce an additional variable when trying to avoid spending thousands of dollars on a transmission replacement. The saving by using the non-OEM spec transmission fluid is miniscule in comparison to the dollars being risked. Just buy the fluid from Ford (or Mazda) and avoid the potential incompatibility issues from mixing fluid types and brands. If your transmission is acting up, changing the fluid may alleviate the issue but using something different or some "magic" additive definitely won't make anything better - likely worse. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nanookvd Posted March 29, 2019 Share Posted March 29, 2019 Bangster - Thank you for the clarification. eGuru - Agreed Has anyone replaced the primary and secondary valve bodies on the FNR5 transmission? I found some youtube videos on the process but it doesn't address where the secondary valve body with the Pressure Control Solenoid "B" is. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nanookvd Posted November 4, 2019 Share Posted November 4, 2019 SOLVED - I checked all the wiring for continuity and solenoids for Ohm resistance. They all checked OK. I ended up replacing the entire valve body for about $350 and to be safe, I replaced the transmission position sensor for about $55. I purchased another used TCM and the orange wrench light and hard shift into Reverse is gone. The transmission operates like its brand new. Even though the trouble code indicated P0745, the transmission behaved very differently between the second TCM I purchased (hard shift into Reverse) and the original TCM (hard shift into Reverse and not shifting into 4th gear). If you are having shifting issues, I would highly recommend doing a full electrical diagnostic on the TCM, wiring harness, and transmission solenoids before having the transmission replaced. After having the car over 10 years and with over 140k miles on it, I find the FNR5 transmission to be quite robust mechanically. A bad TCM can make it behave quite erratically. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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