Misfire/rough idle while warm?

[Red86]

Hey everybody, 

 

Has anybody had any issues of misfiring while the car is warm?  It seems that I may have a vacuum leak, but my symptoms are very similar to a bad coil and a pcv valve.  I would say the ICV, but from my understanding the ICV is attached to the ETB?

 

The car drives great until it is warm. Then when I am at a light, my rpm will drop slowly from my normal 900 to around 500 and shake pretty bad.  I cleaned the ETB, and checked the gasket, but I am having a hard time deciding if I should spend my time chasing a vaccum leak or maybe replacing the PCV/ICV. Car has no codes and 86k. Plugs were replaced last year. Could have never been swapped out but not sure how to test with a multimeter. 

 

Anyways, My search shows me that it could be an PCV or an EGR. But my scan tool shows the EGR system was OK during a drive cycle. I think the ICV is attached to the ETB so when I replaced the ETB, it replaced the idler control valve? 

 

Any ideas or experience with the 2.5l and a misfire while warm? 

 

 

[bangster]

I don't think there is an "ICV" (or Idle Air Controller "IAC") and that is all handled by the PCM as part of the throttle by wire system, so no physical ICV it is computer controlled.

 

At one point they extended the warranty period for the TB, I don't recall what the symptoms where that would have them do a one time replacement of it.

 

MAF needing cleaned or replaced or connector issue is also another thing that can cause this, along with some sort of unmetered air leak (I am guessing that is where you are going with the PCV).

 

 

[Red86]

On 5/12/2019 at 7:43 PM, bangster said:

I don't think there is an "ICV" (or Idle Air Controller "IAC") and that is all handled by the PCM as part of the throttle by wire system, so no physical ICV it is computer controlled.

 

At one point they extended the warranty period for the TB, I don't recall what the symptoms where that would have them do a one time replacement of it.

 

MAF needing cleaned or replaced or connector issue is also another thing that can cause this, along with some sort of unmetered air leak (I am guessing that is where you are going with the PCV).

Correct. I replaced the ETB maybe a year ago along with the blue gasket and cleaned the MAF, too. 

 

I have always suspected a vacuum leak, but have never been able locate it. So I took the ETB off, cleaned it, replaced the gasket, and then cleaned the MAF again Thursday. The car drove like it was brand new, but I noticed the idle would get low and start giving me driveability issues when the car was warm. When it would cool down, no issues, back to warm and issues arise again, etc.

 

I researched and looked for what seemed like forever and found that a symptom of a bad PCV is a vibration and vaccum leak symptoms when at operating temp.  However, i cant find that page again and I would like some of yalls opinions on this. PCV seems easy to replace but curious to see what everybody's opinions are.

 

Quote

On 5/12/2019 at 7:43 PM, bangster said:

I don't think there is an "ICV" (or Idle Air Controller "IAC") and that is all handled by the PCM as part of the throttle by wire system, so no physical ICV it is computer controlled.

 

At one point they extended the warranty period for the TB, I don't recall what the symptoms where that would have them do a one time replacement of it.

 

MAF needing cleaned or replaced or connector issue is also another thing that can cause this, along with some sort of unmetered air leak (I am guessing that is where you are going with the PCV).

 

Sorry for the late reply. I just got all of the parts. Pcv valve, hose, etc.  Now the question is - Where is the PCV valve and how difficult is it to change? 

Thank you again

 

[Red86]

On 5/12/2019 at 7:43 PM, bangster said:

I don't think there is an "ICV" (or Idle Air Controller "IAC") and that is all handled by the PCM as part of the throttle by wire system, so no physical ICV it is computer controlled.

 

At one point they extended the warranty period for the TB, I don't recall what the symptoms where that would have them do a one time replacement of it.

 

MAF needing cleaned or replaced or connector issue is also another thing that can cause this, along with some sort of unmetered air leak (I am guessing that is where you are going with the PCV).

 

 

Hey bangster,

 

Sorry to bring up this old post, but in the quote above you mentioned the driveability issues could be caused by a bad MAF sensor.  I am at the point where I have nearly repalced everything on the car, yet I still have 0 codes to help me diagnose my issues.

 

The current issues all begin when the car is warming up, or at operating temps.  Then the vibration comes in on the car, sometimes when "asking" for more power from the car, the car will bog down with no power and then when I push the gas harder to the floor, the car will accelerate with no issues.  Also, when I am deaccelerating to a stop sign, the car will sometimes "take a deep breath" per se and then clunk the engine but when rolling to a stop the car's RPM's will drop like it is stalling, then pop up..

 

Sorry for the long post, but do you still think it would be worth it to throw a new MAF on there?  I did a visual inspection about 2 months ago, and I vaguely remember the wires looked fine.  But I will check again. Anything I should be on the look out for? burnt wires, etc?

 

Really appreciate your help.

[confused ford owner]

After about 90,000 miles or so, all Fords turn into money pits.

[drolds1]

58 minutes ago, confused ford owner said:

After about 90,000 miles or so, all Fords turn into money pits.

That was really helpful.

[confused ford owner]

That has been my experience with Fords. Sorry if you disagree.

 

[sirtanon]

17 minutes ago, confused ford owner said:

That has been my experience with Fords. Sorry if you disagree.

 

 

Well, no.. there's a difference.  You said:

 

1 hour ago, confused ford owner said:

After about 90,000 miles or so, all Fords turn into money pits.

 

your words:  "all Fords".. Your experience would include your Fords, not all Fords.  When was the last time you owned a ford?  What year was it?   If it was a Ford from between 1979 and 1992 or so.. I can sympathize, because my family and friends had numerous Ford vehicles (mostly Escorts and Tempos) that were utter turds.. but the same thing can't be said (as a rule) for Fords made after.. I'd say.. around 2000 or so.  I had a 2000 Taurus that got totaled at around 160,000 miles but was otherwise pretty reliable, a 2003 Mercury Sable that I sold around 187,000 miles, which had required a few minor repairs in the previous 15,000 miles or so, but nothing very expensive, and then my 2010 Fusion that was a dream to own until around 215,000 miles when I started to get a misfire on cyl1.. and even that only cost about $1500..  Hardly money pits.   YOUR experience may have been bad, but you can't extrapolate that all the way out to ALL Fords.

[confused ford owner]

@ sirtanon:

While you were driving "Turds" i was driving Japanese and enjoying the trouble free miles. Fords have improved, but are still notorious for turning into pumpkins at any given time. Also a diagnostic fee at the dealers are $125 to $150 per repair, which is a stand alone fee, plus +++ the actual cost of the repair. We need to look at the overall track record of the Brand we are spending our money on.  If your Ford is mostly highway miles, you may do better than the usual Ford owner who drives mostly city and a little highway. All in all Toyota is tops. Currently i am driving a Fusion between 2008 and 2012 year model. I am seeing things even now around 89,000 miles which is telling me it is time to bail out. Cars made in Mexico and Malaysia cannot be trusted.

[bangster]

2 hours ago, confused ford owner said:

That has been my experience with Fords. Sorry if you disagree.

 

You are just a troll with nothing useful to add.

 

I bitch about my cars, but don't just spread hate by going through all the posts and saying "me too" or vague references. 95% of traffic on auto enthusiast sites is to elicit help on an issue you are having, sometimes there are known issues or trends, but usually a solution.

 

It is unfortunate for us you own a Ford, but the confused part really is apropos. I think you should stick to Facebook or some other outlet for your poor uninformed choices you seem to keep repeating.

[confused ford owner]

Just when i thought i was out,they pulled me back in..quote from the God Father. I fell for all the hype and even to my surprise i purchased a car made in Mexico, guilty as charged. Cracked studs, Cracked gas tanks, bad purge valve, bad airbags, overly designed expensive to replace wheel lugs, parking brake that freezes in winter if you use it, sensors that give you false alarms, and the list goes on. My choice was not uninformed but very informed. The sources of the information were, in hind site, may have been folks who hold Ford stocks or have something to gain by giving a favorable review. I think you call that a biased opinion. Ford cannot compete anymore and it is starting to show up in raised prices for their cars and services. Example,... i was never charged a diagnostic fee with my previous ford ,but now $125 to $150 just to tell me whats wrong. Ford is finished being a leader, no more original ideas from their engineers. They seem to copy from everyone else. This is why Ford is always 2 years behind on everything , from 8 speed transmissions,hydraulic or electric parking brake and the stupid dial trans shifter, which not everyone is doing yet thank God. It is bad and will get worse for Ford.    

[drolds1]

3 hours ago, confused ford owner said:

That has been my experience with Fords. Sorry if you disagree.

 

Where did I say I disagree? Maybe I do and maybe I don't. That's hardly the point.   My comment was in response to your non-answer.  The OP is looking for help.  That's why people come here.  If you have nothing of value to contribute, then why comment?

[confused ford owner]

How does a person delete their account on this God forsaken forum?

[Red86]

2 minutes ago, confused ford owner said:

How does a person delete their account on this God forsaken forum?

Pretty sure that during the amount of time it took you to create the quoted post you could have figured out how to do so...  

 

Keep on going and I am pretty sure an admin can help you out with that..

[akirby]

13 hours ago, confused ford owner said:

How does a person delete their account on this God forsaken forum?

 

Your wish is my command!

[Red86]

Well guys, My transmission went out at 93,400 miles on Friday 11/8 and it was the torque converter per the dealership that went out as there are metal shards everywhere.  It wasn't the mounts, or a misfire, or anything else, but my transmission.  In all honesty, I am happy the tranny went out as I have been throwing parts at it for nearly 2 years hunting something that wasn't there.  This also explains why the clunking noise would come in to play while putting it in to reverse, not my motor mounts.  

 

After waiting nearly two weeks for them to break it down to show my warranty company what failed, they wanted to give me a used 6F35 with 77k miles on it.  I declined and opted to throw that contribution to a new 6F35.  

 

Walking out the door I am looking at $3,267.00.  Which isn't bad as they quoted me around $5700 at the dealership.  Which isn't bad at all as i will get a new tranny with a 3 year warranty and unlimited mileage.  I got the car used at 47k, but I was in such a desperate need for a car I didn't do research on this car and bought it from carmax.  it turns out, it was a fleet car for an Enterprise in Georgia.  So I rightfully assumed it was driven like a race car and wasn't maintained properly.

 

Now that I'll have a new tranny, I have searched on here and found diferent opinions on flushing or a drain and fill.  I have also followed FordTechMakuloco and he says a drain and fill every 30k.

 

Any guidance?  

 

 

 

 

[bangster]

I would change the fluid every 30-45k, that is what I am doing with my 6F35 trannied cars. I did my daughters 2015 at around 45k and the transmission fluid was very oxidized, it was darker than 10k used motor oil (I thought I drained the wrong thing...). Since you have a dipstick and don't need to do the ridiculous sight hole in the side of the transmission it is pretty easy to do. I have the fluid to do my 2017 Escape, it is at 50k but I haven't had a decent chance to do it yet, and since that is still 100k shy of the normal interval, it shouldn't be catastrophic.

 

Mercon LV just gets very dark, and I think, unlike crankcase oil, that it means it is worn out, the package of additives are toast, I don't think it is burnt or full of friction material.

[Red86]

8 minutes ago, bangster said:

I would change the fluid every 30-45k, that is what I am doing with my 6F35 trannied cars. I did my daughters 2015 at around 45k and the transmission fluid was very oxidized, it was darker than 10k used motor oil (I thought I drained the wrong thing...). Since you have a dipstick and don't need to do the ridiculous sight hole in the side of the transmission it is pretty easy to do. I have the fluid to do my 2017 Escape, it is at 50k but I haven't had a decent chance to do it yet, and since that is still 100k shy of the normal interval, it shouldn't be catastrophic.

 

Mercon LV just gets very dark, and I think, unlike crankcase oil, that it means it is worn out, the package of additives are toast, I don't think it is burnt or full of friction material.

Bangster, thank you.
 

Just to clarify, the drain and fill at 30k is what you are currently doing?  I've seen on the Fordtechmokuloco channel that the darker color is normal on Mercon LV.  He also suggests every 30k.  On my old tranny, the color would get darker every 12k and always made me wonder how this dark of color can be OK for 30k.

[bangster]

I am doing 45-50k, both of my vehicles with the 6F35 are the newer better ones, but don't have a dipstick and require taking off the wheel to check level.

 

While color is not a good indicator in most cases, and Ford has said that Mercon LV does get dark at a low mileage, if the first one didn't even make it to the scheduled normal fluid change, I would think that $20 preventative maintenance every 2 years is money well spent.

 

I am very hard on transmissions, and I have only had one that needed replaced at around 200k miles. Otherwise I keep them cool, fresh fluid, and keep an eye on the condition and level of the fluid. My 2012 Fusion shifts so much better once I replaced the 110k mile fluid (but it is the Aisin 6 speed), my daughter couldn't really tell once I did hers.

[sirtanon]

Mercon LV will darken pretty quick - in my experience it will go from a bright red to a "Grape KoolAde" purple in around 25k - 30k miles.  While this is largely just an appearance thing, and the fluid can easily go longer, with the 6F35 it's still a good idea to do a single Drain & Fill roughly every 30k miles just to keep the average age of the fluid low, as well as to keep it cleaner.  Doing a 30k interval SHOULD keep your 6F35 going for at least a couple hundred thousand miles.  My own factory 6F35 trans in my 2010 made it to over 274,000 miles doing this.

[bangster]

Ford says color is fine (that it starts out darker, can appear to be "burnt" or even green.

 

FordTechMakuloco says it is worn out at 30k and he worries about clogging the non replaceable filter, that is why he suggests 30k.

 

This doesn't look like transmission fluid to me:

but it is, at 45k

 

4 quarts of Mercon LV is fairly cheap and easy to deal with. I used to do 13 quart fluid changes on my last car every 30k miles ($550 in fluid) and at 330k, it isn't what caused me to stop driving the car, it still worked at about 95% of the original workings (it got a little brain dead if I let off the gas and coasted then punched it, it got confused and wouldn't shift immediately down).

[sirtanon]

Wow, that is dark.  And only 45k?  Must have worked it pretty hard.

[Red86]

Solid points. Thank you for your input and time.  

 

I just left the dealership and saw the crate tranny.  Pretty cool to see up close. 

 

Just to confirm, brand new tranny, do the first drain and fill every 30k? I'm here in Texas and it gets pretty hot here.  Still 30k?

[sirtanon]

Honestly, you could probably stretch the first one out to 45k or even 60k, but I'd stick with 30k.  As far as heat goes, I live in Phoenix, and it regularly hits 117F during the summer. sometimes even over 120F.  I still did 30k intervals and hit 274k.

[Red86]

40 minutes ago, sirtanon said:

Honestly, you could probably stretch the first one out to 45k or even 60k, but I'd stick with 30k.  As far as heat goes, I live in Phoenix, and it regularly hits 117F during the summer. sometimes even over 120F.  I still did 30k intervals and hit 274k.

Perfect. Thank you for that.