Recall 19b37

[THGDriver]

29 minutes ago, bbf2530 said:

Hi gang. Just a minor terminology correction: "TSB" is the acronym for "Technical Service Bulletin".

 

Good luck.

Thank you bbf2530, I erroneously used the "slang term" that myself, my service writers and technicians called them daily back in the day. I corrected the post.  Good luck.

[NCEcoBoost]

22 hours ago, THGDriver said:

19B37 is not a recall nor is it a TSB, it is, as another poster above correctly named it, a customer satisfaction "program". A recall lasts for 10 full years to anybody that owns the vehicle during that 10 years. The recalls are usually, but not always, instigated by the Federal government. They are always free of charge.  A TSB, short for Technical Service Bulletin , is a numbered notice sent to dealers for a fix for a specific complaint/problem owners are having with their vehicle.  TSB's are intended to put the service writer and or Technician on to a known problem and a recommended repair/fix. TSB repairs are "not" necessarily free if vehicle is out of warranty. There may well be a TSB on 1.5L engine running rough at start up, and a check engine light on and a suggested reason, repair/fix, but I doubt it would be this same 19B37 number. That would only cause confusion. Programs are usually free too but only for the time listed, usually a lot less then 10 years. I was, before I retired, a service manager at a Lincoln Mercury, Ford,  Mercedes Benz dealership. I don't think the above info changed since I retired but is possible.

 

As I said in an earlier post, I had this 19B37 "PROGRAM" completed on my 2017, 3000 mile Fusion 1-30-2020. Upon arriving home  I listened for the pump still running after shut off and it was. B 4 closing the hood I put a piece of 3/4 wide tan masking tape on the plastic coolant bottle with the bottom of the tape at the top level of the coolant. With a black sharpie I then put an arrow pointing at the fluid level with today's date. I checked it 2-12-2020 and the coolant  has dropped 1/4 of an inch. I put the tape on the plastic bottle when Coolant was hot so the 1/4 inch drop may be due to the car sitting a few days now and completely cold. We'll see in another week or so what happens. Good luck. 

Mine often sits for a few days and the coolant level goes down about the same during the idle period.

[NCEcoBoost]

21 hours ago, Chip said:

So this CSP requires the installation of an additional electric water pump to the cooling system?

No, it apparently just runs the existing pump for about 10 seconds after the engine is shut off.  I still haven't heard mine running but we have a large garage with lots of chirping birds outside always.

My Repair Order indicated installation of that Battery Saver that no one else has mentioned.  I'm at the point now where I'm just saying "whatever".

[THGDriver]

22 hours ago, FL Guy said:

 

Thanks @THGDriver for the clarification on the terminology!

 

Can you (or anyone else?) shed any light on whether the same issue which triggered this CSP has been identified in the 2.0L Fusion engine?

I have no information on the 2.0L engines if I do i'll get back to you.

[NCEcoBoost]

23 hours ago, FL Guy said:

 

Thanks @THGDriver for the clarification on the terminology!

 

Can you (or anyone else?) shed any light on whether the same issue which triggered this CSP has been identified in the 2.0L Fusion engine?

As I noted in my post above, there is info on the 2.0L Turbo issue in threads on the site BlueOvalForums.com.  Along with a copy of that letter that was sent out.  Check both the Fusion and Escape sections.  I really think it's in the latter.  I came upon this whole CSP thing early when I was in a rant about the idiocy of the 3-cylinder in the new Escape and then this coolant leak thing took off from there.  By my choice, I have sworn off participating any longer on that site.

Edited February 13, 2020 by NCEcoBoost

[THGDriver]

50 minutes ago, NCEcoBoost said:

No, it apparently just runs the existing pump for about 10 seconds after the engine is shut off.  I still haven't heard mine running but we have a large garage with lots of chirping birds outside always.

My Repair Order indicated installation of that Battery Saver that no one else has mentioned.  I'm at the point now where I'm just saying "whatever".

I read your original post about the battery saver. I even looked at my battery to see if anything was added. After seeing that the red cover on the battery was not disturbed I just assumed it was something your dealer was doing to ward off dead battery questions from customers. Now that you brought it up again. Can you take a look and let me know exactly what your dealer added and how it works without you plugging it in? If dealers are supposed to be doing this (battery saver) myself, and it looks like others, are not getting what Ford intended possibly.

 

I, at my own expense, have what is called A Battery "Tender" Junior permanently hooked up to the battery in my 2009 Ford F-150 supercrew lariat truck. I have the pigtail/plug just out the space between the right front headlamp and the fender. I have the tender/charger plugged into 120 volt outlet. It has a 10 foot cord that plugs into the pigtail/plug at the headlight. I have is so if I forget to unplug it, it pulls apart at the headlight connection when I back up but I always (so far) have remembered to disconnect it. It just keeps the battery topped off during the sometimes 3 weeks a month I don't use it and shuts off automatically. They are great for mowers, garden tractors, motor cycles, boats, etc, etc. It has a red light on when topping off battery that turns green when not. I have had it about 7 years now. Good luck.

[THGDriver]

1 hour ago, NCEcoBoost said:

Mine often sits for a few days and the coolant level goes down about the same during the idle period.

Thank you for that information, that confirms that the drop may be normal. Please get back to me about the batter tender your dealer installed, I hope you saw my inquire about that above. Thanks again and good luck. 

Edited February 13, 2020 by THGDriver

[NCEcoBoost]

1 hour ago, THGDriver said:

Thank you for that information, that confirms that the drop may be normal. Please get back to me about the batter tender your dealer installed, I hope you saw my inquire about that above. Thanks again and good luck. 

I thought I'd be nice and snap a photo of the battery area.  The red cover has been taken off and it looks like either there's a new battery terminal or something has been added to it.  The red cover no longer fits on it.  Of course, just when I decide to do this, the doorbell rings, the phone rings, the dryer starts buzzing with a done load.  I took the pic but it's disappeared to somewhere in the depths of my PC.  I'll try again later after all this stuff quiets down.

OK, here's the pic (ignore the date on it as I forgot to reset the date).  I tried my darndest to get the garage bright, but the darn flash still went off, so it's hard to see.  The part attached is metallic - looks like a bolt with a new terminal end and not much else.  Its purpose, obviously, is to prevent a battery rundown when the water pump runs after the car shuts down.  Yes, it may be a "my dealer only" thing, in which case I'd be shocked since they're good but not great...

Edited February 13, 2020 by NCEcoBoost

[Chip]

Ok I need some help here! Does this vehicle have two coolant pumps? One engine driven, and one electrically driven somewhere in the heater core circuit?

Edited February 13, 2020 by Chip

[NCEcoBoost]

53 minutes ago, Chip said:

Ok I need some help here! Does this vehicle have two coolant pumps? One engine driven, and one electrically driven somewhere in the heater core circuit?

I don't have a clue.  I admit it's confusing.  The techies (and Ford employees) tend to hang out more at BlueOvalForums.com.  That's where I go for tech info, but this site is better to have civil conversations.  So beware.

[Chip]

Anyone?

 

[THGDriver]

1 hour ago, NCEcoBoost said:

I thought I'd be nice and snap a photo of the battery area.  The red cover has been taken off and it looks like either there's a new battery terminal or something has been added to it.  The red cover no longer fits on it.  Of course, just when I decide to do this, the doorbell rings, the phone rings, the dryer starts buzzing with a done load.  I took the pic but it's disappeared to somewhere in the depths of my PC.  I'll try again later after all this stuff quiets down.

OK, here's the pic (ignore the date on it as I forgot to reset the date).  I tried my darndest to get the garage bright, but the darn flash still went off, so it's hard to see.  The part attached is metallic - looks like a bolt with a new terminal end and not much else.  Its purpose, obviously, is to prevent a battery rundown when the water pump runs after the car shuts down.  Yes, it may be a "my dealer only" thing, in which case I'd be shocked since they're good but not great...

Thank you for the great photo, I just came back in from my garage, I pulled back the red cover and I have exactly the same setup. I can't say for sure it was added because I never looked under the red cover till now but it looks original.  My red cover fits fine, after looking I re positioned it back in place. I'm not being argumentative but nothing short of adding something like I added to my F 150 (assuming you read what I did) the battery will lose some charge sitting because there is always a constant (Vampire) electrical draw just like your TV, VCR, cable box, etc. do in your home. Otherwise your "radio" "clock" and other items that hold memory when engine/key off would all need resetting.  BTW, I am sure that pump ran for 4 minutes by my wrist watch after I shut the engine off but next time I run an errand with the Fusion I will time it again and get back here. Good luck 

[THGDriver]

56 minutes ago, Chip said:

Anyone?

 

As far as I have been able to determine there is two. One belt driven and one electrical in the heating circuit. The next errand I get back from I am going to re time how long the electrical pump runs after the engine is shut off. I did this once the day (1-30-2020) the CSP  was completed and by my watch it ran 4 minutes.  When I re time it I will locate where it is located in the engine compartment and get back to you. If you want to see the engine click this link. Good luck.

https://www.motorreviewer.com/engine.php?engine_id=133

[NCEcoBoost]

The "techies" over at BlueOvalForums claim that the pump is only supposed to run for around 10 seconds after the car is turned off.  Certainly nowhere near 4 minutes.  I think that there is only ONE pump and the PCM reprogramming allows it to run for that brief time with no engine power.  It's obviously an electrical pump.  The fact that we have start/stop (which I always turn off) complicates matters further.  The battery saver may have been in the programming and is not a physical piece.  Yes, I am familiar with the battery savers that you can buy, but don't feel I need one.

[Chip]

If there is an electrical coolant pump I sure want to see where it lives, and what it looks like. Are you sure about there only being one pump?

[NCEcoBoost]

10 minutes ago, Chip said:

If there is an electrical coolant pump I sure want to see where it lives, and what it looks like. Are you sure about there only being one pump?

Not at all, as I said above.  BUT, the coolant problem now being experienced has SOMETHING to do with the turbocharging, if that's any help.  I'd expected the fan to run along with whatever pump, after the PCM reprogramming and after turning the car off.  Lots of imports run the fan after shutdown.  I sure don't hear a fan running.  I really don't think this is much of a fix.  If mine's gonna go, I just hope it's soon.  I plan to use the car a LOT more going forward.

[JTav8r]

All,

 

My 2019 Fusion SE is in the dealer's shop today for the Field Service Alert 19 B 37. In some research I did on-line, I found a copy of the letter Ford sent to dealers about this program, as well as a copy of TSB 19-2375 which is referred to in the dealer letter. (Please note that the letter sent to customers/owners does not mention this TSB at all.)

 

When I took my car in, I mentioned to the Service Adviser that my coolant was right at the MIN mark. His comment to me was "It is normal for these cars to use a little bit of coolant, the reprogram is because some vehicles are using much more coolant than they should due to the turbo overpressurizing cylinders #3 & 4". Two things about that just do not sound correct to me:

          1) How would the turbo only overpressurize 2 of the 4 cylinders - this is a single turbo engine?

          2) How is it NORMAL for an engine with 16K miles on it to "use some coolant"?

 

I have attached the letter and the TSB to this post. I noted that in the "Service Procedure" section of the Dealer Letter (MC-10169989-0001) that one of the steps in the reprogramming is to connect the vehicle to a 12 volt battery charger. That may be what was being done for the one individual who reported their work order mentioning a "Battery Saver" being installed.

 

I really do not have a good feeling that this PCM re-program is going to keep the additional coolant leakage into the cylinders from occurring. But at least by having it done as Ford asked, any further issues will (hopefully) be covered by Ford.

 

John

MC-10169989-0001.pdf

TSB 19-2375.pdf

Edited February 17, 2020 by JTav8r
Add info & correct spelling

[Chip]

I agree with your fears. I don't understand how the model years "affected" by 19B37 seem to be 2017- 2019 yet indicate that some of the affected Fusions were built as early as 2015. That does not add up. How can the 2015 + 2016 model years be exempted?

[andyross]

Maybe there was some change between 2016 and 2017? Different gasket material, design, or block manufacturing change, or even the specs of the steel or aluminum used?

[Chip]

On 2/13/2020 at 6:07 PM, THGDriver said:

As far as I have been able to determine there is two. One belt driven and one electrical in the heating circuit. The next errand I get back from I am going to re time how long the electrical pump runs after the engine is shut off. I did this once the day (1-30-2020) the CSP  was completed and by my watch it ran 4 minutes.  When I re time it I will locate where it is located in the engine compartment and get back to you. If you want to see the engine click this link. Good luck.

https://www.motorreviewer.com/engine.php?engine_id=133

On some reflection on the possibility of installing a water pump inline on the heater core circuit...That would not work. Would it? After all, the heat control valve would have to be in the open position to allow coolant to circulate into the interior of the heat exchanger and then back into the motor or radiator. This action would heat the interior of the vehicle which in the summer time would not be good. Am I missing something here?

[THGDriver]

As promised in an earlier post that I would re time how long the electric pump runs since the CSP was completed on my 2017 Fusion 1-30-2020.  I did an errand today so when I returned home I pulled into the garage and looked at the second hand on my watch. I shut the engine off and "BY MY WATCH IT RAN FOR FOUR MINUTES" again. I asked the service writer how long it will run way back when I made an appointment and she said 3 to 5 minutes. So this second timing I did seems right as the first time I timed it I got FOUR MINUTES and she said 3 to 5. 

 

Someone here said they got information at a blue oval forum that it runs for 10 seconds after engine shut down. To me that makes no sense at all, how much extra cooling will take place in 10 seconds??!!? I don't think that person at the blue oval forum knows what he/she is talking about. That is why I timed it again!!

 

NOW--I timed it twice . it runs for four minutes on/in my 2017 Fusion 1.5L after engine is shut down. I opened the hood and listened to it. If you want to take what blue oval forum tells you as the gospel fine, it is none of my business who you listen to or who's advice you take. I simply write the facts here as I know them.  Good luck.

[THGDriver]

4 hours ago, Chip said:

On some reflection on the possibility of installing a water pump inline on the heater core circuit...That would not work. Would it? After all, the heat control valve would have to be in the open position to allow coolant to circulate into the interior of the heat exchanger and then back into the motor or radiator. This action would heat the interior of the vehicle which in the summer time would not be good. Am I missing something here?

 

Hi Chip, your reflection as to where the pump is is well taken. I don't know yet where it lives (as you put it) for sure. I am sure there is two because if you google "electric coolant pump 1.5L Ford engine" you get a picture of it and it says---"Auxiliary Pump"--- If we look Auxiliary up in the dictionary it says--Supplemental-Additional. I am sure there is a "Primary" belt driven coolant pump too because I googled it too and saw a picture of it.  I'm sorry I did not have time to locate the electric pump today when I RE TIMED  how long it stays on after shutting engine off . I had a car full of groceries to put away including ice cream, milk, etc. I will find it next time, I don't drive every day. Good luck.

[THGDriver]

9 hours ago, JTav8r said:

All,

 

My 2019 Fusion SE is in the dealer's shop today for the Field Service Alert 19 B 37. In some research I did on-line, I found a copy of the letter Ford sent to dealers about this program, as well as a copy of TSB 19-2375 which is referred to in the dealer letter. (Please note that the letter sent to customers/owners does not mention this TSB at all.)

 

When I took my car in, I mentioned to the Service Adviser that my coolant was right at the MIN mark. His comment to me was "It is normal for these cars to use a little bit of coolant, the reprogram is because some vehicles are using much more coolant than they should due to the turbo overpressurizing cylinders #3 & 4". Two things about that just do not sound correct to me:

          1) How would the turbo only overpressurize 2 of the 4 cylinders - this is a single turbo engine?

          2) How is it NORMAL for an engine with 16K miles on it to "use some coolant"?

 

I have attached the letter and the TSB to this post. I noted that in the "Service Procedure" section of the Dealer Letter (MC-10169989-0001) that one of the steps in the reprogramming is to connect the vehicle to a 12 volt battery charger. That may be what was being done for the one individual who reported their work order mentioning a "Battery Saver" being installed.

 

I really do not have a good feeling that this PCM re-program is going to keep the additional coolant leakage into the cylinders from occurring. But at least by having it done as Ford asked, any further issues will (hopefully) be covered by Ford.

 

John

MC-10169989-0001.pdf

TSB 19-2375.pdf

 

Good post John, I agree with your detective work on the "Battery Saver". I did not see the TSB and your link don't work but your comment makes sense. I got the letter from Ford. As to the service writer stating "It's normal for these engines to use a little bit of coolant". My service person said no such thing nor would I have accepted such a statement without a far and extensive explanation where it is going. I have owned a lot of cars in my 77 years and never had one use----ANY---- coolant unless it had a leaking head gasket, manifold gasket, heater core, etc. or a leak onto the street. ----The statement---"some vehicles are using much more coolant than they should due to the turbo over-pressurizing cylinders #3 & 4" is laughable. Stay tuned, this is not over by a long shot. Good luck

Oh, by the way, I did tell my service writer that if the coolant was already leaking into the cylinders no amount of reprogramming the PCM would fix that and she agreed with me.

Edited February 18, 2020 by THGDriver

[NCEcoBoost]

18 hours ago, JTav8r said:

All,

 

My 2019 Fusion SE is in the dealer's shop today for the Field Service Alert 19 B 37. In some research I did on-line, I found a copy of the letter Ford sent to dealers about this program, as well as a copy of TSB 19-2375 which is referred to in the dealer letter. (Please note that the letter sent to customers/owners does not mention this TSB at all.)

 

When I took my car in, I mentioned to the Service Adviser that my coolant was right at the MIN mark. His comment to me was "It is normal for these cars to use a little bit of coolant, the reprogram is because some vehicles are using much more coolant than they should due to the turbo overpressurizing cylinders #3 & 4". Two things about that just do not sound correct to me:

          1) How would the turbo only overpressurize 2 of the 4 cylinders - this is a single turbo engine?

          2) How is it NORMAL for an engine with 16K miles on it to "use some coolant"?

 

I have attached the letter and the TSB to this post. I noted that in the "Service Procedure" section of the Dealer Letter (MC-10169989-0001) that one of the steps in the reprogramming is to connect the vehicle to a 12 volt battery charger. That may be what was being done for the one individual who reported their work order mentioning a "Battery Saver" being installed.

 

I really do not have a good feeling that this PCM re-program is going to keep the additional coolant leakage into the cylinders from occurring. But at least by having it done as Ford asked, any further issues will (hopefully) be covered by Ford.

 

John

MC-10169989-0001.pdf

TSB 19-2375.pdf

John, first, thanks so much for attaching the actual TSB, which I'd never seen before.  There is a fairly new thread in the EcoBoost section ("Do Misfire Codes Stay...") where a member is trying to get Ford to pay for the short block work AFTER the powertrain warranty has expired, so you may want to keep on top of that one, as should everyone affected.

Edited February 18, 2020 by NCEcoBoost

[NCEcoBoost]

14 hours ago, Chip said:

I agree with your fears. I don't understand how the model years "affected" by 19B37 seem to be 2017- 2019 yet indicate that some of the affected Fusions were built as early as 2015. That does not add up. How can the 2015 + 2016 model years be exempted?

The CSP actually covers all 1.5L Fusions from 2014-2019.  But, it sure does seem that 2017s+ seem to be having the issue more.  Someone on another site said that the turbocharger may have changed for '17 and it increases the pressure.  Maybe twin scroll?