AWD Overkill for Philly? Does it help in rain?

[MikeS]

My AWD Subaru Tribeca lease is ending, and I must say I really loved having AWD.

 

I'm switching to the 2011 Fusion because I fell in love with Sync & Nav and all the Bells & Whistles and the great 2 year lease deals.

 

I live in Philadelphia, and only drive 20 minutes to work (all main roads & highway).

 

Is getting AWD overkill considering I live in the city, don't drive that much, and it doesn't snow that often?

 

If it helps in the rain, that would help me rationalize it better.

 

So, is it must I justify this to myself based only on snow, or can I reasonably do so based on snow & rain?

 

Thanks,

Mike

[mkpolley]

My AWD Subaru Tribeca lease is ending, and I must say I really loved having AWD.

 

I'm switching to the 2011 Fusion because I fell in love with Sync & Nav and all the Bells & Whistles and the great 2 year lease deals.

 

I live in Philadelphia, and only drive 20 minutes to work (all main roads & highway).

 

Is getting AWD overkill considering I live in the city, don't drive that much, and it doesn't snow that often?

 

If it helps in the rain, that would help me rationalize it better.

 

So, is it must I justify this to myself based only on snow, or can I reasonably do so based on snow & rain?

 

Thanks,

Mike

 

I just bought 2010 fusion SEL AWD,also test drove a SEL FWD,AWD seems more stable,handles better but not as good as fusion sport,somewhere in between.

AWD helps in all conditions,corners better,the extra weight makes it more stable.

Im in Minnesota,but have not driven it in the snow yet.

[xmech2k]

While I live in SoCal now, I grew up and learned to drive in Chicago. I survived with 2wd cars there, like a 1976 Buick Regal, which was rear wheel drive and never heard of ABS or electronic stability systems. I used to have a 40 mile commute in my (gasp) 1990 Chevy Astro rwd mini-van(ABS but no stability system), and I would have to leave so early, the snow plows weren't out, and I never got stuck, so unless you plan on going around corners in the rain or snow at 60 mph, or you have a special situation, like a steep hill to your house, or steep driveway, which could be a factor in the ice & snow, I think you'll manage to survive without AWD. Good luck with your decision!

[Keldon]

My AWD Subaru Tribeca lease is ending, and I must say I really loved having AWD.

 

I'm switching to the 2011 Fusion because I fell in love with Sync & Nav and all the Bells & Whistles and the great 2 year lease deals.

 

I live in Philadelphia, and only drive 20 minutes to work (all main roads & highway).

 

Is getting AWD overkill considering I live in the city, don't drive that much, and it doesn't snow that often?

 

If it helps in the rain, that would help me rationalize it better.

 

So, is it must I justify this to myself based only on snow, or can I reasonably do so based on snow & rain?

 

Thanks,

Mike

 

 

Definitely helps in rain. AWD systems detect slippage and wheel spin before the driver does and redirects power to the wheels with traction. The transition is imperceptible to the driver, but it translates into better grip and road holding in all situations. I've owned 3 cars w/ AWD and will never go back to FWD. AWD also eliminates the torque steer you find in FWD cars on heavy acceleration. The extra cost of AWD (approx $1500) is totally worth all the added benefits you get from it...more fun in the twisties, better grip in all situations, and much safer. You may never know when it kicked in, but it just may save your tail when the weather gets bad.

[MikeS]

I think this answer because it's consistent with what I wanted to hear :-)

 

I was looking for an excuse to get the AWD, this provides it.

 

Thank you!!!!

 

(Now down to color and availability).

 

Mike

[Keldon]

I think this answer because it's consistent with what I wanted to hear :-)

 

I was looking for an excuse to get the AWD, this provides it.

 

Thank you!!!!

 

(Now down to color and availability).

 

Mike

 

 

My opinion is the car looks best in lighter colors (silver, white, gold) b/c it shows off the creases and lines of the car. The darker colors hide all that. Plus the lighter colors don't show dirt as much. I bought silver, but would have got the new Platinum White if I'd waited for a 2011. Its gorgeous.

[Waldo]

I just posted it over on the Edge forum, but the same applies here:

 

AWD is the biggest scam the automobile industry has going on these days. "Piece of mind", "safety and security" is all a bunch of bull. AWD helps you get going faster in slippery conditions. It does a great job of doing that. But it can only help when you are actually putting power to the road. Braking, cornering, and straightline stability - the important things that actually make you feel "secure", are pretty much unaffected by AWD.

 

People have somehow misinterpreted AWD systems as enablers for better handling. Part of this comes from the fact that race cars with AWD always outperform 2WD competitors. It's not because they can actually take corners faster, it's because they can distribute the traction on corner exit among the 4 tires, allowing greater acceleration out of the corner. Some people might argue that this is technically "handling", but really it's just a different form of low-traction acceleration. The only way that an AWD system can improve handling is because the weight of the system will actually lower the CG of most vehicles. That can give an impression of better handling because of lower roll moments, but the extra weight itself isn't going to give you any additional grip. If you really want feeling, spend $200 and bolt a plate of steel to the floor of your car.

[Keldon]

I just posted it over on the Edge forum, but the same applies here:

 

AWD is the biggest scam the automobile industry has going on these days. "Piece of mind", "safety and security" is all a bunch of bull. AWD helps you get going faster in slippery conditions. It does a great job of doing that. But it can only help when you are actually putting power to the road. Braking, cornering, and straightline stability - the important things that actually make you feel "secure", are pretty much unaffected by AWD.

 

People have somehow misinterpreted AWD systems as enablers for better handling. Part of this comes from the fact that race cars with AWD always outperform 2WD competitors. It's not because they can actually take corners faster, it's because they can distribute the traction on corner exit among the 4 tires, allowing greater acceleration out of the corner. Some people might argue that this is technically "handling", but really it's just a different form of low-traction acceleration. The only way that an AWD system can improve handling is because the weight of the system will actually lower the CG of most vehicles. That can give an impression of better handling because of lower roll moments, but the extra weight itself isn't going to give you any additional grip. If you really want feeling, spend $200 and bolt a plate of steel to the floor of your car.

 

 

So having two extra driving wheels doesn't help you pull away faster on a snow-covered road?? Or provide "piece of mind" and "safety and security" while driving up a snowy road or driveway?? And better acceleration out of a turn isn't considered handling?? C'mon Wadlo, I don't know any true enthusiast drivers who would take a FWD car over an AWD one.

[xmech2k]

I have to agree with Waldo, mostly. Keldon makes a good point of the 'automotive enthusiast'. My point is, most drivers don't push their cars to the limits where AWD would really make a difference. I suppose it might help in those slippery conditions, depending on the drive system. The FWD Fusion has traction control, too, so will do all the same calculating, power distributing, whatever, as AWD, just with only the front wheels as far as accellerating goes. Years ago I got over the fact that this car can do 0-60 in .1 second faster than that car. Unless your at a race track, who cares? Just like the AWD. Do you regularly push your car to its traction limits in daily driving? In the rain? Do you always mash the gas so hard your tires spin when you accellerate? In the snow? Again, depends on the AWD system. Does it lock the differentials for more traction, or just reduce the throttle or grab the brake of the spinning wheel? I grew up in Chicago, and NEVER got a 2wd vehicle stuck. Had a Jeep CJ7 a while, and never needed 4wd in the snow on the roads.Like Waldo said, 4wd doesn't help you turn or stop in the snow, so better be careful how fast that 4wd will get you anyways. If you're an automotive enthusiast, and take your car to a race track, and you're really good enough to get consistently good lap times, then that extra .05 seconds a lap may be worth it.

 

Well, everyone has their opinions, so that's mine. Unless you're the mailman and the mail MUST get through, I think for the extra money, weight, and maintenance ( read $$$$$), it's not worth it.

[Keldon]

I agree that AWD doesn't help you stop faster or turn better in ordinary, everyday driving. But if you like occasionally taking your car out for a spirited drive on a twisty, you'll have more fun in an AWD than FWD. After years of driving both I know this firsthand. The AWD will pull out of a curve faster and with more "feeling" than the FWD. And the biggest plus is, as I mentioned earlier, you don't have any torque steer with AWD when dropping the hammer from a standstill. Try that in a FWD car and feel the steering wheel dance in your hands and the tires spin and shimmy as they try to gain traction. Its all in what you want out of your car. If you just want a good-looking, reliable, safe car with lots of tech goodies that gets you from point A to B, buy a FWD Fusion SEL. But if you think of driving as more of an art, definitely go for the AWD Sport.

[Waldo]

So having two extra driving wheels doesn't help you pull away faster on a snow-covered road?? Or provide "piece of mind" and "safety and security" while driving up a snowy road or driveway?? And better acceleration out of a turn isn't considered handling?? C'mon Wadlo, I don't know any true enthusiast drivers who would take a FWD car over an AWD one.

 

I don't know any true enthusiast drivers who would buy a Fusion and consider it an enthusiast car. Of course AWD is a better choice for an enthusiast, but enthusiasts make up such a small percentage of the market compared to the number of people who are buying AWD cars these days. Besides, the Fusion's AWD system is not tuned for the enthusiast, it's tuned to convince the masses that they actually got some value for what they payed for.

 

I have yet to experience or even think of a situation in which AWD is truly safer, except when it prevents one from getting stuck. Accelerating faster from a stop light or out of a corner is not safer in any way, but certainly more fun.

Edited September 29, 2010 by Waldo

[Keldon]

I don't know any true enthusiast drivers who would buy a Fusion and consider it an enthusiast car. Of course AWD is a better choice for an enthusiast, but enthusiasts make up such a small percentage of the market compared to the number of people who are buying AWD cars these days. Besides, the Fusion's AWD system is not tuned for the enthusiast, it's tuned to convince the masses that they actually got some value for what they payed for.

 

I have yet to experience or even think of a situation in which AWD is truly safer, except when it prevents one from getting stuck. Accelerating faster from a stop light or out of a corner is not safer in any way, but certainly more fun.

 

 

I've driven both cars (AWD Sport and FWD Sport) several times...hard...on twisty two lane roads. I can tell you the difference is astonishing, like two completely different cars. I've never seen any documentation from Ford saying exactly how they tuned the AWD system, but I know it feels waay more sporty in hard driving than the FWD. AWD DOES make a difference when driving hard down a road filled with curves, uneven pavement, left to right banks, and undulating surfaces. The AWD system is constantly monitoring the traction of all four wheels and sending the power where it needs it. Try that in your FWD and you'll find yourself upside down in a ditch.

[xmech2k]

I don't know any true enthusiast drivers who would buy a Fusion and consider it an enthusiast car.

LOL! You hit the nail on the head, Waldo! :happy feet: My 'enthusiast' coworker has a Pontiac GTO, and got his wife a G8. I would be jealousof his cars (Well, I am a little) but I know in the long run, I'll enjoy my better mileage and lower maintenance costs.

[Moosehead]

Snow tires are probably better investment but I found the AWD does help on unplowed roads (or my unshoveled driveway) -that's with snow tires too though.

[Waldo]

I've driven both cars (AWD Sport and FWD Sport) several times...hard...on twisty two lane roads. I can tell you the difference is astonishing, like two completely different cars. I've never seen any documentation from Ford saying exactly how they tuned the AWD system, but I know it feels waay more sporty in hard driving than the FWD. AWD DOES make a difference when driving hard down a road filled with curves, uneven pavement, left to right banks, and undulating surfaces. The AWD system is constantly monitoring the traction of all four wheels and sending the power where it needs it. Try that in your FWD and you'll find yourself upside down in a ditch.

 

I agree it makes a difference in those conditions. But I'll bet I could make a FWD feel better then a stock AWD for a lot less than $1850, just putting on some nice performance summer tires ought to do it. My point is that if what you're describing are the only benefits, is it really worth the money and fuel economy penalty? If the OP is only concerned about driving in the rain in the city, then the cost/benefit equation is substantially different than it is for you.

[xmech2k]

Yeah, no one asked MikeS if he is an 'enthusiast' or not. Well MikeS?

[awdpath]

For the full time AWD/4WD Fusions ... it's all about traction (thanks to Mr. Newton and fast microprocessor):

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CVxkUOutWFo

Edited September 30, 2010 by awdpath

[xmech2k]

Wow! With AWD, that car sticks to the ceiling!

[MikeS]

MikeS (me): I'm totally NOT an enthusiast. I barely know how to fuel up the car, never changed oil in my life, and if I got a flat, AAA is on speed-dial.

 

That said, I live in Philly (city), and drive 20 minutes to work in 70% city driving, 30% highway.

 

I do drive alone regularly, and a big phobia of mine is getting stuck in the snow in a bad neighborhood. Though I live in a high-rise and park underground, I do drive to the gym which involves parallel parking on an moderately inclined street. Sometimes, cramming my car into the supermarket parking lot (very narrow spaces) makes me nervous that in the winter, I might slide sideways into someones car.

 

I will be leasing it. Both the AWD & FWD cars are in my budget.

 

Because I live in the city, and it's a lease, I never change tires (no snow tires). Just the stock tires.

 

I hated my old Honda Accord (FWD) because it was soo fast, if you hit the gas from a stop, it would spin out if wet.

 

My current subaru tribeca doesn't do that (mabye because it's 4,000 pounds and probably slower), but I like to think because it's AWD.

 

As I mentioned, I don't know anything about cars, but when someone mentioned torque steer, I think I know what that means, and my old honda accord had that in a bad way (didn't like that effect at all).

 

So, yes: everyone's needs, values, situations are different, but I'm going for the AWD for this 2 year lease. I suspect in 2 years, I'll be able to make a more informed test drive of a FWD (although I'm expecting that I'll love this car and will special order the next one 8 weeks in advance so I can get the white ext. / black leather without the crazy search I'm presently engaged in (only 2 cars within 300 miles, both listed as not available).

 

So, bottom line: thank you everyone in this forum! I'm really enjoying reading these different views, and I'm learning lots!

 

Thanks,

Mike

[Keldon]

MikeS (me): I'm totally NOT an enthusiast. I barely know how to fuel up the car, never changed oil in my life, and if I got a flat, AAA is on speed-dial.

 

That said, I live in Philly (city), and drive 20 minutes to work in 70% city driving, 30% highway.

 

I do drive alone regularly, and a big phobia of mine is getting stuck in the snow in a bad neighborhood. Though I live in a high-rise and park underground, I do drive to the gym which involves parallel parking on an moderately inclined street. Sometimes, cramming my car into the supermarket parking lot (very narrow spaces) makes me nervous that in the winter, I might slide sideways into someones car.

 

I will be leasing it. Both the AWD & FWD cars are in my budget.

 

Because I live in the city, and it's a lease, I never change tires (no snow tires). Just the stock tires.

 

I hated my old Honda Accord (FWD) because it was soo fast, if you hit the gas from a stop, it would spin out if wet.

 

My current subaru tribeca doesn't do that (mabye because it's 4,000 pounds and probably slower), but I like to think because it's AWD.

 

As I mentioned, I don't know anything about cars, but when someone mentioned torque steer, I think I know what that means, and my old honda accord had that in a bad way (didn't like that effect at all).

 

So, yes: everyone's needs, values, situations are different, but I'm going for the AWD for this 2 year lease. I suspect in 2 years, I'll be able to make a more informed test drive of a FWD (although I'm expecting that I'll love this car and will special order the next one 8 weeks in advance so I can get the white ext. / black leather without the crazy search I'm presently engaged in (only 2 cars within 300 miles, both listed as not available).

 

So, bottom line: thank you everyone in this forum! I'm really enjoying reading these different views, and I'm learning lots!

 

Thanks,

Mike

 

 

I think that's a wise decision Mike, especially since you currently drive a car w/ AWD. And I also enjoy reading evryone's views. Its nice to be able to get other opinions on issues, stuff you may not have thought of. So far everyone on here seems pretty cool. Its nice to be able to have differing opinions and debate issues w/o someone getting all bent out of shape. Good luck with your lease and post some pics when u get it.

[awdpath]

Wow! With AWD, that car sticks to the ceiling!

 

And buildings :

 

[MikeS]

I think that's a wise decision Mike, especially since you currently drive a car w/ AWD. And I also enjoy reading evryone's views. Its nice to be able to get other opinions on issues, stuff you may not have thought of. So far everyone on here seems pretty cool. Its nice to be able to have differing opinions and debate issues w/o someone getting all bent out of shape. Good luck with your lease and post some pics when u get it.

 

 

Although there are many posts saying I don't need the AWD, I very much like this post because it agrees with what I want :-)

 

Plus, it gives me a serene sense of calm, helping me narrow down all the choices :-)

 

Thanks again to everyone!

 

Mike

[wptski]

I've driven both cars (AWD Sport and FWD Sport) several times...hard...on twisty two lane roads. I can tell you the difference is astonishing, like two completely different cars. I've never seen any documentation from Ford saying exactly how they tuned the AWD system, but I know it feels waay more sporty in hard driving than the FWD. AWD DOES make a difference when driving hard down a road filled with curves, uneven pavement, left to right banks, and undulating surfaces. The AWD system is constantly monitoring the traction of all four wheels and sending the power where it needs it. Try that in your FWD and you'll find yourself upside down in a ditch.

There once was a selectable graphic showing the Fusion AWD under different driving conditions. One showed a winding road with torque shifting to wheels side to side. Ford pulled that link. Why? It doesn't work that way. It "only" shifts torque from back to front not side to side. There is a electro-mechanical clutch in the rearend and that's it! AWD is a misused term, it's really just a variation of 4WD and would better to call it Automatic Four Wheel Drive or A4WD.

 

I have a '09 Escape which is the same system. I monitor the rear wheel torque all the time. Every time you leave from a dead stop you get rear wheel torque which slowly decreases till you reach a constant speed. Ford claims increased torque under heavy acceleration. All the way to the floor from a dead stop, never more than maybe 34%. In theory one should get 50% max. Even light acceleration shows 20-25%. I've tried to force increased rear wheel torque on snow at low speeds and never seen any extra. Seems to be more hype than fact to me. I intend to try more again on snow this winter.

 

The Acura SH-AWD has a clutch pack at each rear wheel which makes it a true FWD biased AWD: My link

Edited September 30, 2010 by wptski

[Keldon]

There once was a selectable graphic showing the Fusion AWD under different driving conditions. One showed a winding road with torque shifting to wheels side to side. Ford pulled that link. Why? It doesn't work that way. It "only" shifts torque from back to front not side to side. There is a electro-mechanical clutch in the rearend and that's it! AWD is a misused term, it's really just a variation of 4WD and would better to call it Automatic Four Wheel Drive or A4WD.

 

I have a '09 Escape which is the same system. I monitor the rear wheel torque all the time. Every time you leave from a dead stop you get rear wheel torque which slowly decreases till you reach a constant speed. Ford claims increased torque under heavy acceleration. All the way to the floor from a dead stop, never more than maybe 34%. In therory one should get 50% max. Even light acceleration shows 20-25%. I've tried to force increased rear wheel torque on snow at low speeds and never seen any extra. Seems to be more hype than fact to me. I intend to try more again on snow this winter.

 

The Acura SH-AWD has a clutch pack at each rear wheel which makes it a true FWD biased AWD: My link

 

Again, I'm not sure exactly how Ford has tuned their AWD system in the Sport, and I couldn't find any information on the subject. All I'm saying is the AWD car is going to handle certain situations better than a front driver. Even if it does only distribute the power front to rear, it still helps keep the right wheels pulling when a situation calls for it, like the circumstances I mentioned earlier. And I know from my own experience behind the wheel of both types of cars that the AWD has much better traction from a standstill under heavy acceleration, even if it does only send a smaller percentage to the rear.

[wptski]

Again, I'm not sure exactly how Ford has tuned their AWD system in the Sport, and I couldn't find any information on the subject. All I'm saying is the AWD car is going to handle certain situations better than a front driver. Even if it does only distribute the power front to rear, it still helps keep the right wheels pulling when a situation calls for it, like the circumstances I mentioned earlier. And I know from my own experience behind the wheel of both types of cars that the AWD has much better traction from a standstill under heavy acceleration, even if it does only send a smaller percentage to the rear.

What's to tune? All that can change if any is the percent of rear wheel torque. The explanation of its operation in the manuals are exactly the same. Distribution of torque from a heavy acceleration start is different, so you may/maynot be able to squeak the tires. If they had two unmarked Fusion's one with AWD(4WD) and one without, I dare say that you couldn't tell the difference under normal driving conditions.

 

The situations where you'd expect it to help after reading the sales brochure are pure hype. I or anybody else doesn't need 4WD(AWD) on dry hard pavement in the middle of June, yet it does it costing some MPG. I and others have been mislead by Ford's marketing of so-called Intelligent 4WD(AWD) which really isn't very intelligent at all from what I've seen.