AWD Overkill for Philly? Does it help in rain?

[wptski]

No it's not. You just don't agree with Ford as to what "demands" rear torque.

 

Do you have a point to all this ranting? If you don't like it then get rid of it. Whining about technicalities is pointless.

There's No Demand on dry pavement.

 

I like the vehicle just don't like being duped, maybe you do?

 

If you don't like negative posts about your vehicle or whatever, just don't respond.

[awdpath]

There's No Demand on dry pavement.

I like the vehicle just don't like being duped, maybe you do?

 

If you don't like negative posts about your vehicle or whatever, just don't respond.

 

Some/you don't, but I and some do appreciate/demand 'dry' pavement torque vectoring. And I like my 'duped' Ford Fusion AWD/4WD the way it is.

[awdpath]

There wasn't any hazardous road conditions shown on the winding road. Your memory has failed you.

 

Calling it a On-Demand system is totally incorrect. A 5% increase from moderate to heavy acceleration isn't very much.

 

There's nothing in Workshop Manual as I've shown above and nothing in the owner's either besides not having a temperature sensor in the ATC. Do you have a problem with or don't believe what the manual states? Or just someone that doesn't agree with you?

 

If your Fusion owner's manual mentions anything about the heat protection and /or the dash message center, tell me what page it's on as I'd sure like to read that.

 

 

For the winding road part, front to rear torque vectoring was shown.

 

The rear coupling/RDU does have heat protection according to the 2007 Fusion Workshop Manual. From the Owners Manual, the image of a wrench (Throttle Control/Transmission) " Illuminates when a powertrain or a AWD fault has been detected."

[akirby]

There's No Demand on dry pavement.

 

I like the vehicle just don't like being duped, maybe you do?

 

If you don't like negative posts about your vehicle or whatever, just don't respond.

 

You didn't get duped. Your AWD operates as designed and as advertised. If you don't like it then get rid of it and stop whining about it incessantly.

[wptski]

For the winding road part, front to rear torque vectoring was shown.

 

The rear coupling/RDU does have heat protection according to the 2007 Fusion Workshop Manual. From the Owners Manual, the image of a wrench (Throttle Control/Transmission) " Illuminates when a powertrain or a AWD fault has been detected."

I think that it showed side to side but that can't be proven because Ford killed the link. Even back to front doesn't happen either. You have SG-II, so if you can find a proper road to test it on. You haven't tried a heavy throttle from a dead stop either or just don't want to say so?

 

What the '07 Workshop Manual stated, I posted above. Yes, it states that it has a heat protection mode but there is only one cable going to the ATC which is the one that operates it. Nothing in the electrical showing a temperature sensor only the two wire cable that operates the ATC.

 

Waldo says that it's in my owner's manual, it's not so I ask you also, what page in your owner's manual describes a dash warning about heat protection as I'd like to read that??

[wptski]

You didn't get duped. Your AWD operates as designed and as advertised. If you don't like it then get rid of it and stop whining about it incessantly.

It seems that you guys have a reading disorder of sorts. I have posted above and it was also used the graphic that Ford killed where they said they said torque is directed to the "wheel(s)" that have the most traction. That implies that torque is shifted from side to side which the system is not able to do. A open differetial sends the torque to the wheel that has the "least" traction. Actually there isn't a differential between the front and back so it can't shift torque that way either. It can supposedly increase rear wheel torque when needed.

[Waldo]

It seems that you guys have a reading disorder of sorts. I have posted above and it was also used the graphic that Ford killed where they said they said torque is directed to the "wheel(s)" that have the most traction. That implies that torque is shifted from side to side which the system is not able to do. A open differetial sends the torque to the wheel that has the "least" traction. Actually there isn't a differential between the front and back so it can't shift torque that way either. It can supposedly increase rear wheel torque when needed.

 

Good grief, I've pointed out to you several times how it's you that seems to have the reading disorder. I was looking at the graphic while I was typing my previous post, it certainly does/did not show side to side transfer on winding roads. All the other references to "wheel" are used when describing a system that includes traction control/RSC, which clearly can be used to direct torque to one wheel.

 

Now you're going to argue that there is a difference between "increasing" and "shifting"?? The engine puts out a given amount of torque at any one time. The only way to increase the rear torque at that point in time is by taking away torque from the front. How does the word "shift" not fit that condition?

[Waldo]

There's No Demand on dry pavement.

 

First of all that's not true. Maybe in a low-powered hybrid, but in anything else the AWD makes a big difference in dry pavement.

 

Secondly, how is the car supposed to know if the pavement is dry? Did Ford "dupe" you into thinking that it would somehow know if you're driving on dry or wet pavement?

[akirby]

It seems that you guys have a reading disorder of sorts. I have posted above and it was also used the graphic that Ford killed where they said they said torque is directed to the "wheel(s)" that have the most traction. That implies that torque is shifted from side to side which the system is not able to do. A open differetial sends the torque to the wheel that has the "least" traction. Actually there isn't a differential between the front and back so it can't shift torque that way either. It can supposedly increase rear wheel torque when needed.

 

It shifts torque from the front to the rear by engaging the solenoid in the rear differential. Increasing the rear torque automatically decreases the front torque (as Waldo pointed out). There is no other way to do it since the amount of torque put out by the engine at any given point in time is fixed.

 

You do not understand how differentials and traction control work. If you take a vehicle with an open differential where one wheel is spinning freely and you stop that wheel, what do you think happens? Torque is transferred to the other wheel. With four channel ABS the PCM has the ability to apply the brakes to ONE WHEEL at a time. If it detects wheelspin, it applies the brake to that wheel which then TRANSFERS the torque to the other wheel with traction.

 

That couple with the ability to send torque front and rear means that ONE WHEEL with traction can get torque. That is the definition of ALL WHEEL DRIVE.

[awdpath]

I think that it showed side to side but that can't be proven because Ford killed the link. Even back to front doesn't happen either. You have SG-II, so if you can find a proper road to test it on. You haven't tried a heavy throttle from a dead stop either or just don't want to say so?

 

What the '07 Workshop Manual stated, I posted above. Yes, it states that it has a heat protection mode but there is only one cable going to the ATC which is the one that operates it. Nothing in the electrical showing a temperature sensor only the two wire cable that operates the ATC.

 

Waldo says that it's in my owner's manual, it's not so I ask you also, what page in your owner's manual describes a dash warning about heat protection as I'd like to read that??

 

If the winding road scenario is shown with wheel/s losing traction, then yes, Ford can illustrate side to side and front to rear torque vectoring simultaneously as well.

 

The ATC ( Active Torque Control Coupling Solenoid ) is installed as an assembly with the rear axle by Dana Holding Corporation (2007-2009). It is a seal for life and an assembly replacement component.

Edited November 11, 2010 by awdpath

[wptski]

Good grief, I've pointed out to you several times how it's you that seems to have the reading disorder. I was looking at the graphic while I was typing my previous post, it certainly does/did not show side to side transfer on winding roads. All the other references to "wheel" are used when describing a system that includes traction control/RSC, which clearly can be used to direct torque to one wheel.

 

Now you're going to argue that there is a difference between "increasing" and "shifting"?? The engine puts out a given amount of torque at any one time. The only way to increase the rear torque at that point in time is by taking away torque from the front. How does the word "shift" not fit that condition?

What graphic are you looking at? The first post in that thread is just a picture of what it looked like but not the actual selectable one. The link to the actual selectable graphic has been broken since last year some time, unless you have a working link, I'd be happy to look at and admit if I'm wrong about what it showed. At a constant speed on dry pavement, it wouldn't send any torque to the rear.

 

The references to "wheel(s)" is in the graphic and also the description of AWD at the Ford's Mecrury site. Just look at the top of the graphic, does it say TC??

 

You don't have a transfer case, therefore you don't have a differential between the front and rear. Without a differential, you can't shift torque from the front to rear as one would with Full-Time Four Wheel Drive.

 

I will admit that it's some design to eliminate the transfer case, drive off a PTU to the rearend using a PWM operated clutch without tearing the PTU during operation.

Edited November 11, 2010 by wptski

[wptski]

It shifts torque from the front to the rear by engaging the solenoid in the rear differential. Increasing the rear torque automatically decreases the front torque (as Waldo pointed out). There is no other way to do it since the amount of torque put out by the engine at any given point in time is fixed.

 

You do not understand how differentials and traction control work. If you take a vehicle with an open differential where one wheel is spinning freely and you stop that wheel, what do you think happens? Torque is transferred to the other wheel. With four channel ABS the PCM has the ability to apply the brakes to ONE WHEEL at a time. If it detects wheelspin, it applies the brake to that wheel which then TRANSFERS the torque to the other wheel with traction.

 

That couple with the ability to send torque front and rear means that ONE WHEEL with traction can get torque. That is the definition of ALL WHEEL DRIVE.

I do understand how a open differetial works with TC. TC doesn't apply the brake to the spinning wheel , it pulses the brake, you'd lose control of the vehicle if it applied the brake fully.

 

The Ford Escape Hybrid didn't have TC before 2009, so what do you call them?

[wptski]

First of all that's not true. Maybe in a low-powered hybrid, but in anything else the AWD makes a big difference in dry pavement.

 

Secondly, how is the car supposed to know if the pavement is dry? Did Ford "dupe" you into thinking that it would somehow know if you're driving on dry or wet pavement?

This system is supposed to anticipate wheel spin before it happens! I gues the car does know if the pavement is dry or not.

 

Hey guys, I'm still waiting for the pages in your Fusion owner's manual about dash warning of high temperature of the ATC unit.

[akirby]

You don't have a transfer case, therefore you don't have a differential between the front and rear. Without a differential, you can't shift torque from the front to rear as one would with Full-Time Four Wheel Drive.

 

I will admit that it's some design to eliminate the transfer case, drive off a PTU to the rearend using a PWM operated clutch without tearing the PTU during operation.

I do understand how a open differetial works with TC. TC doesn't apply the brake to the spinning wheel , it pulses the brake, you'd lose control of the vehicle if it applied the brake fully.

 

Pulses? Isn't that applying the brake? Now you're just arguing over semantics. Pulsing the brakes on the spinning wheel will send torque to the non spinning wheel. That's the whole point of traction control.

 

Ford's system gives the PCM control over the amount of torque accepted by the rear - electronically via the clutch in the rear differential. Engaging the rear clutch sends torque to the rear wheels. When the rear takes torque that torque has to come from the front. Therefore it transfers torque from the front to the rear in increments.

 

This system is supposed to anticipate wheel spin before it happens! I gues the car does know if the pavement is dry or not.

 

Sending torque to the rear prevents possible wheel slip in the event that it IS slippery. If it's not slippery then it doesn't hurt. It doesn't anticipate ACTUAL slippage - it anticipates POSSIBLE slippage. I think you understand this but you're just trying to be argumentative. Otherwise you're just an idiot. Either way it's pointless to continue arguing.

[Waldo]

This system is supposed to anticipate wheel spin before it happens! I gues the car does know if the pavement is dry or not.

 

I like to anticipate if I'm going to get wet from the rain before I walk outside. Usually I can look out the window and I'll know. But if I didn't have a window, and wanted to guarantee that every time I walked outside I would stay dry, they I would put up my umbrella every time before I walked out the door. Most of the time it wouldn't be needed, but the few times it is raining, I would stay dry. That's what anticipating means.

 

Hey guys, I'm still waiting for the pages in your Fusion owner's manual about dash warning of high temperature of the ATC unit.

 

I was trying to point out why your 4WD light doesn't come on, not that it was directly related to the overheat condition. The owner's guide does specifically say the message center will be used for AWD/4WD system malfunctions, but not specifically overheating.

Edited November 11, 2010 by Waldo

[Waldo]

I do understand how a open differetial works with TC. TC doesn't apply the brake to the spinning wheel , it pulses the brake, you'd lose control of the vehicle if it applied the brake fully.

Brakes aren't on/off devices. You can apply a constant pressure on a brake and not lock-up a wheel. That constant pressure is enough to provide a reaction force to push the torque back through the open diff and over to the other side.

[wptski]

I like to anticipate if I'm going to get wet from the rain before I walk outside. Usually I can look out the window and I'll know. But if I didn't have a window, and wanted to guarantee that every time I walked outside I would stay dry, they I would put up my umbrella every time before I walked out the door. Most of the time it wouldn't be needed, but the few times it is raining, I would stay dry. That's what anticipating means.

 

 

 

I was trying to point out why your 4WD light doesn't come on, not that it was directly related to the overheat condition. The owner's guide does specifically say the message center will be used for AWD/4WD system malfunctions, but not specifically overheating.

What page?

 

Okay, I looked at the '07 Fusion owner's manual. You wouldn't know if it was overheated or had a blown fuse. The "wrench" icon for mine is listed as Throttle Control/Power Train. If you pull the fuse, it will light up.

 

No indicator for a over temperature, so no need for instructions on how to deal with it but since there isn't a temperature sensor anyway, who needs a indicator?

Edited November 12, 2010 by wptski

[wptski]

Brakes aren't on/off devices. You can apply a constant pressure on a brake and not lock-up a wheel. That constant pressure is enough to provide a reaction force to push the torque back through the open diff and over to the other side.

They are when it comes to the ABS function which TC uses to pulse the brakes on a single or multiple wheels. Pulsing gives more control, it's like the PWM used on the ATC or DRL.

[wptski]

Pulses? Isn't that applying the brake? Now you're just arguing over semantics. Pulsing the brakes on the spinning wheel will send torque to the non spinning wheel. That's the whole point of traction control.

 

Ford's system gives the PCM control over the amount of torque accepted by the rear - electronically via the clutch in the rear differential. Engaging the rear clutch sends torque to the rear wheels. When the rear takes torque that torque has to come from the front. Therefore it transfers torque from the front to the rear in increments.

 

 

 

Sending torque to the rear prevents possible wheel slip in the event that it IS slippery. If it's not slippery then it doesn't hurt. It doesn't anticipate ACTUAL slippage - it anticipates POSSIBLE slippage. I think you understand this but you're just trying to be argumentative. Otherwise you're just an idiot. Either way it's pointless to continue arguing.

If you resort to name calling, you must be uneducated and/or weren't brought up very well.

[akirby]

If you resort to name calling, you must be uneducated and/or weren't brought up very well.

 

There is no other description for what you're doing - either you're purposely ignoring the facts you've been presented just to be argumentative or you're just not smart enough to understand them. Either way I'm done arguing.

[wptski]

There is no other description for what you're doing - either you're purposely ignoring the facts you've been presented just to be argumentative or you're just not smart enough to understand them. Either way I'm done arguing.

Facts? Nobody has provided any documents, just what's stated in Ford's PR releases or what you think, nothing factual. Your arguing, I'm discussing.

 

Facts are like the YouTube video, although no Ford products but vehicles with AWD/4WD couldn't provide enough rear wheel torque to climb a incline with the front wheels slipping. Considering the way a Fusion/Escape works, it seems that it would though.

Edited November 12, 2010 by wptski

[akirby]

Facts? Nobody has provided any documents, just what's stated in Ford's PR releases or what you think, nothing factual. Your arguing, I'm discussing.

 

Facts are like the YouTube video, although no Ford products but vehicles with AWD/4WD couldn't provide enough rear wheel torque to climb a incline with the front wheels slipping. Considering the way a Fusion/Escape works, it seems that it would though.

 

We gave you facts but you won't believe them. Suit yourself.

Edited November 12, 2010 by akirby

[Waldo]

They are when it comes to the ABS function which TC uses to pulse the brakes on a single or multiple wheels. Pulsing gives more control, it's like the PWM used on the ATC or DRL.

 

Just because you're pulsing a solenoid, doesn't mean the brake pads themselves are pulsing.

[wptski]

Just because you're pulsing a solenoid, doesn't mean the brake pads themselves are pulsing.

Apparently you've never felt the ABS system kick in while applying the brakes!

 

The following from '07 Fusion Workshop Manual.

 

Anti-Lock Control

 

The anti-lock brake system (ABS) module receives wheel speed readings from each wheel speed sensor and processes this information to determine if an ABS event is necessary. The wheel speed sensor electrically senses each tooth of the wheel speed sensor indicators as it passes through the wheel speed sensor magnetic field.

 

The active wheel speed sensor generates a signal that is sent to the ABS module. The wheel speed sensor circuitry connects to the ABS module through 2 wires and a connector at each wheel speed sensor. When the ignition is turned to the RUN position, the ABS module carries out a self-test by sending a reference voltage to all of the wheel speed sensors through their circuitry to determine if they are functional.

 

The ABS module continuously monitors and compares the rotational speed of each wheel and when it detects an impending wheel lock, modulates brake pressure to the appropriate brake caliper. This is accomplished by triggering the hydraulic control unit (HCU) to open and close the appropriate solenoid valves. Once the affected wheel returns to normal speed, the ABS module returns the solenoid valves to their normal position, and normal (base) braking resumes.

 

The HCU has additional internal solenoid valves incorporated to enable control modulation of the wheel brake pressures.

 

The ABS module is self-monitoring. When the ignition switch is turned to the RUN position, the ABS module does a preliminary electrical check, and at above 20 km/h (12 mph) the pump motor is turned ON for approximately 1/2 second. Also, during all phases of operation the ABS module, with the vehicle in motion, checks for correct operation of the wheel speed sensors. Any malfunction of the ABS causees the ABS to shut off. Normal power assisted braking, however, remains.

 

Traction Control System — All Wheel Drive (AWD)

 

The ABS module communicates with the powertrain control module (PCM) to assist with traction control. When the drive wheels lose traction and begin to spin, with vehicle speed under 100 km/h (62 mph), the ABS module requests the PCM to reduce engine torque while simultaneously applying and releasing the appropriate brake caliper(s) to maintain traction. The PCM accomplishes this by minor incremental timing changes and fewer fuel injector pulses until the ABS module ends the request. The request ends when the driven wheel speed returns to the desired speed. After the vehicle speed exceeds 100 km/h (62 mph), the traction control is accomplished only through the PCM torque control. The traction control system can be disabled by pressing the traction control switch and is indicated by the traction control light in the instrument cluster. The traction control system resets and returns to normal operation when the ignition switch is cycled, or when the traction control switch is pressed and released a second time during the same ignition cycle.

[Waldo]

Well again you completely missed my point. Yes I know how an ABS system works. But pulsing in the ABS actuator does not equal pulsing at the brake surface. When you use the ABS, you feel pulsing in the pedal, but do you feel pulsing in the actual braking of the vehicle?

 

The reaction time in the brake fluid between the solenoid and the piston (including flexing in the rubber brake lines), the friction and rollback in the piston, the friction in the calipers as they slide over the pins all results in a smoothing of those pulses such that the actual torque reaction at the wheel is not a pulse, but a smooth, continues braking torque. That makes it very easy to create a reaction through the differential which shifts drive torque to the other side.