rammertide07 Posted October 14, 2011 Share Posted October 14, 2011 (edited) Hello again, been a while since I've made a post but been pretty lucky so for with the car. I've put 35k mi on it since march and its currently at 106,500mi. The engine is making a knocking noise at idle only. No signs of lacking in performance and display shows I'm getting 27.5mpg. I do run it hard getting up to 80mph on the interstate and an occasional 90-100mph if I get to running with a fast group. The knock is consistent and fast. My wife is in panic mode and just wants the oil change place to "fix" it for here. Me, I'm no big fan of letting anyone give their diagnosis (not even the dealership) and throw parts at it. So can anyone give me advice on where to start? Oil changes have been done every 3-4k miles. thanks Edited October 14, 2011 by rammertide07 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FusionDiffusion Posted October 14, 2011 Share Posted October 14, 2011 Hello again, been a while since I've made a post but been pretty lucky so for with the car. I've put 35k mi on it since march and its currently at 106,500mi. The engine is making a knocking noise at idle only. No signs of lacking in performance and display shows I'm getting 27.5mpg. I do run it hard getting up to 80mph on the interstate and an occasional 90-100mph if I get to running with a fast group. The knock is consistent and fast. My wife is in panic mode and just wants the oil change place to "fix" it for here. Me, I'm no big fan of letting anyone give their diagnosis (not even the dealership) and throw parts at it. So can anyone give me advice on where to start? Oil changes have been done every 3-4k miles. thanks These are really hard to diagnose over the internet unless you have a good quality recording. The first thing to do would be to change the oil and use 5W-20 as recommended. If the oil shop just said 10w30 was close enough, then you might have an issue with valve ticking. I would change the oil myself and use Motorcraft 5W-20 (buy at Wal-Mart). Second, I would put in a fresh tank of premium gas (91+ octane). If it was pinging due to poor quality gas this might be the cause but very unusual on these modern engines. If the noise is really loud, you could have some sort of engine damage like a broken valve, bent rod, etc. Since I don't trust oil change shops to do anything right, make sure the engine hasn't been run without oil. Check all fluid levels and make sure there isn't water in the oil or oil in the coolant. I've heard horror stories where the oil change place forgot to put oil back in and the customer drove away and wrecked their engine. The oil shop types will deny it all day or make up BS. Also, the only people recommending 3000 mile oil changes these days are the oil change shops. This is a relic of ancient oil formulations in the 60's, but no longer true today with modern oils and engines. You can safely go 5000-7500 miles and even up to 10,000 miles on a change with an extended life oil. People that change their oil every 3000 miles at a flakey oil shop are more likely to suffer damage to their car as a result of gross negligence vs. people that change their own oil every 7500 miles as recommended. Ford dealers will do oil changes for about $20. You get really great oil (and filter), they top off all your fluids (even washer fluid), and they inspect your tires for no extra change. You also get a trained technician. You still might still get a stupid one, but at least they're not hiring 18 year olds off the street with no experience like the oil change places. If you think your car needs to see a mechanic, please take it to a Ford dealer or a trusted independent mechanic (preferably ASE certified). DO NOT take your car to an oil change shop for engine repair!!! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rammertide07 Posted October 14, 2011 Author Share Posted October 14, 2011 (edited) These are really hard to diagnose over the internet unless you have a good quality recording. The first thing to do would be to change the oil and use 5W-20 as recommended. If the oil shop just said 10w30 was close enough, then you might have an issue with valve ticking. I would change the oil myself and use Motorcraft 5W-20 (buy at Wal-Mart). Second, I would put in a fresh tank of premium gas (91+ octane). If it was pinging due to poor quality gas this might be the cause but very unusual on these modern engines. If the noise is really loud, you could have some sort of engine damage like a broken valve, bent rod, etc. Since I don't trust oil change shops to do anything right, make sure the engine hasn't been run without oil. Check all fluid levels and make sure there isn't water in the oil or oil in the coolant. I've heard horror stories where the oil change place forgot to put oil back in and the customer drove away and wrecked their engine. The oil shop types will deny it all day or make up BS. Also, the only people recommending 3000 mile oil changes these days are the oil change shops. This is a relic of ancient oil formulations in the 60's, but no longer true today with modern oils and engines. You can safely go 5000-7500 miles and even up to 10,000 miles on a change with an extended life oil. People that change their oil every 3000 miles at a flakey oil shop are more likely to suffer damage to their car as a result of gross negligence vs. people that change their own oil every 7500 miles as recommended. Ford dealers will do oil changes for about $20. You get really great oil (and filter), they top off all your fluids (even washer fluid), and they inspect your tires for no extra change. You also get a trained technician. You still might still get a stupid one, but at least they're not hiring 18 year olds off the street with no experience like the oil change places. If you think your car needs to see a mechanic, please take it to a Ford dealer or a trusted independent mechanic (preferably ASE certified). DO NOT take your car to an oil change shop for engine repair!!! Shortly after this post I got to thinking, what have I not done (maint wise) to this car. Since I've owned it I have not changed the fuel filter. I'm sure its time by now to change it. I'm also going to have the plugs and wires changed....then see what it does from there. Only reason why I don't change the oil in the car is because I can not get up under it. I change all 14 qrts of oil in my F350. I do have another question, where is the transmission oil dip stick at? Edited October 14, 2011 by rammertide07 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FusionDiffusion Posted October 14, 2011 Share Posted October 14, 2011 Shortly after this post I got to thinking, what have I not done (maint wise) to this car. Since I've owned it I have not changed the fuel filter. I'm sure its time by now to change it. I'm also going to have the plugs and wires changed....then see what it does from there. Only reason why I don't change the oil in the car is because I can not get up under it. I change all 14 qrts of oil in my F350. I do have another question, where is the transmission oil dip stick at? The fuel filter is part of the fuel sender/pump assembly in the tank and isn't serviceable. If it clogs, you have to buy the whole module. Plugs are a good idea at 100k (I believe that's the recommended interval). No plug wires since you have COP. I use ramps to change my oil (I think you can get some for $50). That should give you as much clearance as a truck underneath. Transmission fluid should be changed if it hasn't been done before. The newer cars don't have a tranny dipstick, just a black plug on the filler tube somewhere near the battery. You have to have the dealer check the fluid level. They have the dipstick and have to read the fluid temp from the TCM for an accurate reading. If you do have the transmission done, make sure they don't use any flush chemicals or a power flusher. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rammertide07 Posted October 14, 2011 Author Share Posted October 14, 2011 The fuel filter is part of the fuel sender/pump assembly in the tank and isn't serviceable. If it clogs, you have to buy the whole module. Plugs are a good idea at 100k (I believe that's the recommended interval). No plug wires since you have COP. I use ramps to change my oil (I think you can get some for $50). That should give you as much clearance as a truck underneath. Transmission fluid should be changed if it hasn't been done before. The newer cars don't have a tranny dipstick, just a black plug on the filler tube somewhere near the battery. You have to have the dealer check the fluid level. They have the dipstick and have to read the fluid temp from the TCM for an accurate reading. If you do have the transmission done, make sure they don't use any flush chemicals or a power flusher. Yea, just figured that out about the fuel filter. DUMB engineering!!!!! If I don't need wire, why does the auto parts place sell them? I looked up "COP spark plug" and looks like there is no spark plug wires on the car. I've thought about ramps but I wasn't sure how well the oil would drain on an incline....thanks. Seems like they are building more vehicles to be too complicated for people to work on the cars themselves. Thats why I don't buy another/newer truck. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rammertide07 Posted October 14, 2011 Author Share Posted October 14, 2011 Are there not wires from the distributor to the "COP" that need to be replaced. I've only driven diesel since I got my license...not too familiar with spark ignition. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drolds1 Posted October 14, 2011 Share Posted October 14, 2011 Are there not wires from the distributor to the "COP" that need to be replaced. I've only driven diesel since I got my license...not too familiar with spark ignition. No. There's no distributor. The car's ECU signals each individual coil-mounted plug when to fire using inputs from the crankshaft position sensor, the camshaft position sensor and other sensors as well. Only short, thin wires are connected to each COP to carry the signal. These are not high tension wires and don't readily wear out or break down, as conventional spark plug wires would. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rammertide07 Posted October 15, 2011 Author Share Posted October 15, 2011 Thats cool to know..thanks for all the information guys. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rammertide07 Posted October 15, 2011 Author Share Posted October 15, 2011 New spark plugs, oil, and oil filter and the knock is still there. The knock quitens (ideling with hood open) when the A/C is turned on. I'm not too worried about it but my wife was...untill she listened to someone else (home mechanic). 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rammertide07 Posted October 15, 2011 Author Share Posted October 15, 2011 (edited) Now after new spark plugs it has an irregular miss. Gonna look at it tomorrow to see if I can find anything with the spark plugs. Looks like oil around the spark plugs? Is there anything I should look for? The miss wasn't there before the new spark plugs. I'm seriously considering buying autoenginuity. I can pay 100 for Ford run a diagnosis or I can by the software with the same capabilities for 360. Edited October 15, 2011 by rammertide07 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FusionDiffusion Posted October 16, 2011 Share Posted October 16, 2011 Now after new spark plugs it has an irregular miss. Gonna look at it tomorrow to see if I can find anything with the spark plugs. Looks like oil around the spark plugs? Is there anything I should look for? The miss wasn't there before the new spark plugs. I'm seriously considering buying autoenginuity. I can pay 100 for Ford run a diagnosis or I can by the software with the same capabilities for 360. What kind of spark plugs did you use? I would only use the Motorcraft ones. Did you get a check engine light due to the misfire? Do a power balance test (systematically unplug each COP) to find the misfiring cylinder. If the noise get quieter with the A/C on, its either related to the serpentine belt accessories (bad bearing?) or perhaps a change in engine load. The AutoEngenuity is a good tool, but of limited use to you here. It's not going to tell you what the noise is. You can get an OBDII code reader for about $50 that's about 80% as useful as the AutoEngenuity. If you just need codes, you can get them read at most auto parts stores for free. I wouldn't buy an AutoEngenuity unless I needed one of it's exclusive functions (ABS bleed, air bag codes, etc). 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drolds1 Posted October 16, 2011 Share Posted October 16, 2011 I had similar symptoms with my other car. It was contaminated fuel. As FusionDiffusion says, make sure you got the proper plugs. Also recheck your COP connections. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rammertide07 Posted October 16, 2011 Author Share Posted October 16, 2011 No CEL. I'm fixing to unplug one plug at a time and see if I find anything. AE does something similar to this on trucks like mine (f350 diesel). It will do a cylinder contribution test and measure rpms dropped by each cylinder to help determine a problem with an injectors or physical condition of that cylinder. Can that be done on gas engines? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rammertide07 Posted October 16, 2011 Author Share Posted October 16, 2011 (edited) First thing I have found is that the guy that put the spark plugs in did not tighten them back down. So I tightened them down and cranked it up. It's started out fine with rpms a little up bit once it came down to a low idle it started missing again. So I take one spark plug out to check the gap...?? I've never seen a spark plug like this before. Is there no setting for the plug? Gonna try to unplug one at a time now.... Edited October 16, 2011 by rammertide07 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rammertide07 Posted October 16, 2011 Author Share Posted October 16, 2011 Here's the video with all plugs connected. http://static.photobucket.com/player.swf?file=http://vid986.photobucket.com/albums/ae348/rammertide07/VIDEO0056.mp4 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rammertide07 Posted October 16, 2011 Author Share Posted October 16, 2011 I went through unplugging plugs 2-3 times. Last time I did it, I felt the pulses from the exhaust look for irregular pulse. Finally on the last plug on the right, I got a regular exhaust pulse. Hopefully I can get that one replaced and solve my issue. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rammertide07 Posted October 16, 2011 Author Share Posted October 16, 2011 I also forgot to mention I got a CEL while doing all of that, guess that is expected. Battery is disconnected while I'm out to clear the dtc. If it sets again with the new plug ill have it scanned. As far as which programmer is best for the situation, ill agree that the $50 scanner may be best. But in the future with this car or my 01 7.3, I may need the full capability of Autoenginuity such as recording/playback of engine and transmission parameters. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rammertide07 Posted October 16, 2011 Author Share Posted October 16, 2011 (edited) Ok, got a Bosch spark plug because autozone didn't have motorcraft. I changed out the plug that was missing and now all is good. Now, when I turn hard left or right and punch the gass real quick, I guess its a engine pulley squeeks. I also hear a short pulley screech when I first crank the car. How are u suppose to narrow down which pulley it is if it doesn't do it all the time? Edited October 16, 2011 by rammertide07 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FusionDiffusion Posted October 17, 2011 Share Posted October 17, 2011 Yes, you can do a power balance test (electronically) with that scan tool. The spark plug gap is listed in your owner's manual under Maintenance and Specifications. It should be 0.049–0.053 inch. I believe the replacement plugs are double platinum and come pre-gapped at 0.050. If you check them, you have to be really careful you don't scrape of the precious metal coating on the electrodes or your plugs won't work or will wear very quickly. The manufacturers recommend you don't even attempt to check them for this reason. The fact you had one bad plug tells you the other plugs might not be correct or were damaged during installation. Also remember you're dealing with an aluminum cylinder head so you shouldn't tighten them as hard as you can. Ideally you would use a torque wrench on them. To find the bad pulley, I would take the serpentine belt off and then spin each pulley individually by hand. They should feel smooth and quiet. If the bering went bad on something you should be able to tell (squeaky or spins with almost no resistance). It's also possible the belt tensioner has gone and isn't keeping proper tension or isn't dampening properly. The tensioner should stay pretty still with the engine idling. If it's bouncing around a lot it's probably bad. Also check the ridged side of the belt for cracks. Bend it backwards and I think if you see more than about 2-3 cracks per inch you should replace it. I can hear the ticking in the video, but I can't tell you what it is definitively. It sounds like it's loudest when you have the camera over the intake manifold, so it might be a noisy injector or possibly a valve issue. Try grabbing the fuel injectors to see if you can feel the noise. Was poor quality or old gas used in this car (or has it been sitting previously)? I'm leaning toward the injector since you didn't have any codes, but you could also do a compression test if you like. I would put a 20 oz. bottle of Techron in the gas and run the tank through. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rammertide07 Posted October 17, 2011 Author Share Posted October 17, 2011 Yes, you can do a power balance test (electronically) with that scan tool. The spark plug gap is listed in your owner's manual under Maintenance and Specifications. It should be 0.049–0.053 inch. I believe the replacement plugs are double platinum and come pre-gapped at 0.050. If you check them, you have to be really careful you don't scrape of the precious metal coating on the electrodes or your plugs won't work or will wear very quickly. The manufacturers recommend you don't even attempt to check them for this reason. The fact you had one bad plug tells you the other plugs might not be correct or were damaged during installation. Also remember you're dealing with an aluminum cylinder head so you shouldn't tighten them as hard as you can. Ideally you would use a torque wrench on them. To find the bad pulley, I would take the serpentine belt off and then spin each pulley individually by hand. They should feel smooth and quiet. If the bering went bad on something you should be able to tell (squeaky or spins with almost no resistance). It's also possible the belt tensioner has gone and isn't keeping proper tension or isn't dampening properly. The tensioner should stay pretty still with the engine idling. If it's bouncing around a lot it's probably bad. Also check the ridged side of the belt for cracks. Bend it backwards and I think if you see more than about 2-3 cracks per inch you should replace it. I can hear the ticking in the video, but I can't tell you what it is definitively. It sounds like it's loudest when you have the camera over the intake manifold, so it might be a noisy injector or possibly a valve issue. Try grabbing the fuel injectors to see if you can feel the noise. Was poor quality or old gas used in this car (or has it been sitting previously)? I'm leaning toward the injector since you didn't have any codes, but you could also do a compression test if you like. I would put a 20 oz. bottle of Techron in the gas and run the tank through. Compression is check through the spark plug port? The one plug i pulled out was a Motorcraft Iridium plug....I thought I read somewhere that is for the hybrids? Or is that ok to have in the car? Now that I think about it, I think I do recall seeing a pulley bouncing around....didn't think much of it at the time. Do I have to take a cover off to grab an injector? I thought that was a natural noise from the engine. It had a full tank at the time the video was taken and I get the gas from the same place everytime. I ran techron through it last month, guess it wouldn't hurt to do it again but I doubt it would make a difference. I do have a CEL, but I'm not sure if that from unplugging the spark plugs or I got something else going on. I unhooked the battery and let it set for about 2hrs to try and clear the DTC, but guess it wasn't long enough. Also, after I started the car after putting the new plug in, it would go up to about 1200rpm then fall back down to almost 500. It did that twice with the CEL and a wrench light on. Then on the 3rd time it started and idled normally with just the CEL. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FusionDiffusion Posted October 17, 2011 Share Posted October 17, 2011 Compression is check through the spark plug port? The one plug i pulled out was a Motorcraft Iridium plug....I thought I read somewhere that is for the hybrids? Or is that ok to have in the car? Now that I think about it, I think I do recall seeing a pulley bouncing around....didn't think much of it at the time. Do I have to take a cover off to grab an injector? I thought that was a natural noise from the engine. It had a full tank at the time the video was taken and I get the gas from the same place everytime. I ran techron through it last month, guess it wouldn't hurt to do it again but I doubt it would make a difference. I do have a CEL, but I'm not sure if that from unplugging the spark plugs or I got something else going on. I unhooked the battery and let it set for about 2hrs to try and clear the DTC, but guess it wasn't long enough. Also, after I started the car after putting the new plug in, it would go up to about 1200rpm then fall back down to almost 500. It did that twice with the CEL and a wrench light on. Then on the 3rd time it started and idled normally with just the CEL. Iridium plugs are great. They will last the longest. Yes, compression is tested through the spark plug port. Basically you have a gauge on a rubber hose that has threaded fitting on the end that you screw into the plug hole. Disable fuel or ignition and crank the engine about 5 revolutions for a reading. Video: Cylinder numbering: Firewall 1 2 3 4 Radiator The injectors are not under a cover. They should be right in front of the COP modules by the dipstick tube. They are connected to the fuel rail and have a two wire connector going toward each one and spray into the intake runners right where the head joins to the manifold. They get nosier with age, but that isn't a problem, just an annoyance. You should really get the codes read and cleared. I don't know if disconnecting the battery cable will do it anymore. You could be setting codes as soon as you start the car. Go back to Autozone and ask them for a printout of the codes (e.g P0304). Also have them reset the codes if possible. You might be fighting several problems here. The wrench light typically indicates a problem with throttle body control or the transmission. Most often it's the throttle body on these cars. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rammertide07 Posted October 17, 2011 Author Share Posted October 17, 2011 10-4, I'll get the codes checked this evening. Thanks for all the help. I'll post back with my results when I get 'em. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rammertide07 Posted October 17, 2011 Author Share Posted October 17, 2011 Got the codes: P2112- throttle actuator system - stuck closed. Explanation, ECM has detected the throttle plate is at a lower angle than commanded. Problem cause, binding throttle body - stuck closed. P2104- throttle actuator control system is in FMEM mode of forced idle. Problem cause, defective APP sensor. Multiple control system faults detected. Failed ECM. I got the codes pulled at autozone and they would not clear the codes. She said it was illegal? But it may just be against autozone policy. I'm gonna get the codes cleared before I go any further. I drove 120 mi in it today with no problems. Dash display said I got 28.5mpg. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FusionDiffusion Posted October 18, 2011 Share Posted October 18, 2011 Got the codes: P2112- throttle actuator system - stuck closed. Explanation, ECM has detected the throttle plate is at a lower angle than commanded. Problem cause, binding throttle body - stuck closed. P2104- throttle actuator control system is in FMEM mode of forced idle. Problem cause, defective APP sensor. Multiple control system faults detected. Failed ECM. I got the codes pulled at autozone and they would not clear the codes. She said it was illegal? But it may just be against autozone policy. I'm gonna get the codes cleared before I go any further. I drove 120 mi in it today with no problems. Dash display said I got 28.5mpg. Okay, well at least we know the engine is running well now (no misfires). Those codes are for the throttle body like I thought (the wrench light was on). It could just be a little dirty around the edges, but it seems like most of the time the gears wear out and it has to be replaced. Hopefully it doesn't happen again but if it does, I should tell you what to expect. You might not know that the throttle is electronically controlled on your car. On older cars, there was a cable that ran from the pedal to the throttle, but on Fusions the pedal is just a sensor and the throttle is opened by an electric motor. If the system senses a throttle failure, it will go into forced idle mode and turn on the wrench light inside your car. The throttle defaults to it's 8% sprung open position, so it will appear that the throttle pedal suddenly doesn't work. As you slow down, the computer will limit the idle speed by inducing misfires, so the engine will be running very rough or "shaking" like some people describe. Usually you can pull over, turn the car off, and turn it on again to clear the fault and the throttle will work again normally for some time. I'm not surprised they didn't clear your codes. I think is is illegal in some states because it resets the emissions readiness monitors and you won't pass emissions inspections. If you keep driving the car the light should go out on it's own in about 3-4 driving cycles if the problem doesn't come back. You can try that first before you decide to get a code reader. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cobraman302 Posted November 1, 2011 Share Posted November 1, 2011 I am new here, but I will post my thoughts. I have a 2009 Ford Fusion SEL with the 2.3l 4 cyl. engine. I have had it for a year now, and have put 20k miles on it. I change my oil regularly with 5w20 Ford motorcraft sythetic blend oil and a quart of Lucas oil stabilizer. I have noticed that the engine will tick (kind of to a point of a knock sound) at idle only when I have over 3k miles on the oil. I always change the oil at 4500-5k miles, no onger than that. I have 55k miles on the car now. All I can say based on my experience with the car, s that my tick/knock is in direct correlation with engine oil life (mileage wise). I am pretty familiar with cars, and I know taht this isn't anything other sound that could be caused by a fuel issue, or a spark issue. Thought I would ad my $.02. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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