Zack Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 Hi there, My daughter is driving 2010 Hybrid and today during normal 60k (km) / 40k (miles) service they told her that rear brakes are worn out to 1mm which is like hair or two thick! 400 dollars later new pads are installed and she drove home. Car was purchased brand new and she is the only driver. She doesn't use parking brake. This bill (repair) comes as a complete surprise to me. Based on all materials I read I even promised here that she will not see brakes bill ever in that car. I even found picture posted by some Prius owner with brakes at 0 km and 100000 km. They are practically the same. After having about 12-14 different cars in family this also defies experience and logic telling me that front pads will go first and rear will have another 40% of life in them. As bit of reference I had Chrysler mini van, replaced brake pads (front only) at 70k km, Mazda 6 at 65k km, BMW 530 at 90k km, Honda Odyssey at 130k km. All those cards continued to go for another 20k-40k km with original rear pads. Can anybody explain this phenomenon? Was my daughter taken 'for ride" in dealership un-necesarilly replacing components? This tells me that in first 100k on car we will spend about 1200 - 1500 dollars on brakes. Regards, Zack 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bbf2530 Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 (edited) Hi there, My daughter is driving 2010 Hybrid and today during normal 60k (km) / 40k (miles) service they told her that rear brakes are worn out to 1mm which is like hair or two thick! 400 dollars later new pads are installed and she drove home. Car was purchased brand new and she is the only driver. She doesn't use parking brake. This bill (repair) comes as a complete surprise to me. Based on all materials I read I even promised here that she will not see brakes bill ever in that car. I even found picture posted by some Prius owner with brakes at 0 km and 100000 km. They are practically the same. After having about 12-14 different cars in family this also defies experience and logic telling me that front pads will go first and rear will have another 40% of life in them. As bit of reference I had Chrysler mini van, replaced brake pads (front only) at 70k km, Mazda 6 at 65k km, BMW 530 at 90k km, Honda Odyssey at 130k km. All those cards continued to go for another 20k-40k km with original rear pads. Can anybody explain this phenomenon? Was my daughter taken 'for ride" in dealership un-necesarilly replacing components? This tells me that in first 100k on car we will spend about 1200 - 1500 dollars on brakes. Regards, Zack Hi Zack. Not making any inferences here, but without knowing how she drives it is impossible to say. Is it possible they took her for a ride on the service? Well, some Dealerships are less honest than others, so anything is possible. However, either way, if the only work performed was replacing the brake pads and resurfacing the rotors, then in my opinion she was taken for a ride on those charges. There are Ford and Dealer coupons regularly available on that brake service for as low as $179.95. Even without a coupon, it is about a $220 job (just had mine done). Register for the Ford Owners website and you will find the service coupons and other offers - LINK - Ford Owners Website. Let us know what you find out and good luck. Edited February 7, 2012 by bbf2530 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lolder Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 Did she ask for the old pads? Probably not. The Advanced Vehicle Testing Activity of the Department of Energy had some brake work done on their FFH at 118,000 miles but didn't mention pad replacement. There have been a few other mentions of rear brake wear but it's unusual. See: http://avt.inl.gov/pdf/hev/ms2010fusion4757.pdf 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zack Posted February 8, 2012 Author Share Posted February 8, 2012 Just spoke to my daughter. Whole service was 700 bucks. 200 for brake pads and rotors (!!), 200 labour + 300 for other stuff, like oil and what not. When I get that bill in my hands and learn how to post it here I'll do it. Sounds like substandard parts and too much labour. It says in bill that front ones are at 8mm, still fine. Still nobody explained what kind of car wears rear brakes faster than front ones. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NewNole2001 Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 (edited) Yeah, she probably got taken for a ride as far as the charges, but it isn't uncommon for the rear brakes to need servicing before the front brakes on the FFH (though there can't be that many FFHs that have reached the mileage to need brake work done). Go down to the dealer and have a nice talk with the service manager letting him know that you don't appreciate being stolen from and that you'll be having any future services completed at another dealer that doesn't feel the need to take advantage of customers. Edited February 8, 2012 by NewNole2001 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NewNole2001 Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 Oh, and one other thing. Unless she drives the FFH like a maniac (always braking hard), there's almost no way that it needed new brakes at 40k miles. My car was in for its 60k mile service in December, and the brake pads looked like new on the front, and only minor wear on the rear (I looked at them with the mechanic while they had it on the lift). Granted, most of my miles are highway miles and I am generally trying to brake lightly while playing the city fuel mileage game, though I have had a few hard stops. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zack Posted February 8, 2012 Author Share Posted February 8, 2012 I understand people what you are saying but there is no credible explanation yet how can rear brakes get ruined so fast? My son is driving Jetta TDI, purchased at the same time as FFH. 98000 km (60000 miles). Brakes are still fine and yes, we expect front ones to go first. No, she doesn't drive like maniac, didn't ask for pads to see them, yes looks like overpaid service any way you look at it. It looks like next time I am taking car for servicing. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FusionDiffusion Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 Isn't the hybrid braking system a little different? Aren't the front brakes "disabled" when you're regeneratively braking and only really used for hard stops? This would mean the front pads don't get used much at all, but the rear brakes are used every stop. If the HV battery is full (or as full as it's allowed to get), then wouldn't you only be using the rear pads to stop the vehicle under light-moderate stopping so the rear pads would wear faster? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VonoreTn Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 Zack, Don't take this personally but the most statistically and functionally likely explanation is that while your Daughter doesn't use the parking brake on a regular basis, she did once, and forgot to release it as she drove off. I have 52,000 miles on my FFH and the rear pads are like new. I will never be scammed on a repair because I do my own pads. If you monitor your pad wear and replace them at about 1/8 inch thickness remaining you won't need new rotors for over 100,000 miles, and you will spend about $25 per axle for pad replacements, which takes me about 20 minutes per axle. The rotors were the expensive part of your repair, and if you had 1 mm of pad left, you probably didn't need new rotors. Unless they saw severe heat and warped, due to the parking brake being engaged. After 10 years and 187,000 miles on my 2000 Explorer, all the rotors were still good after 4 pad replacements. If anyone ever tells you that you have only a mm of brake pad left, drive the car home, pop the wheel off and look before you spend $400 on a repair. Even better, while you have the wheel off, run down to Advance Auto and buy some inexpensive pads and put them on your calipers. They are a hell of a lot easier to replace than the old drum brake shoes. By the way, a mm is .040 inch, a hair is about .002 inch. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lolder Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 Isn't the hybrid braking system a little different? Aren't the front brakes "disabled" when you're regeneratively braking and only really used for hard stops? This would mean the front pads don't get used much at all, but the rear brakes are used every stop. If the HV battery is full (or as full as it's allowed to get), then wouldn't you only be using the rear pads to stop the vehicle under light-moderate stopping so the rear pads would wear faster? The front brakes are never disabled but are seldom engaged above 5 mph if you are gentle with the brakes. If the HVB is full, all the mechanical brakes may be used but mostly the front like in most cars. Rumor is a FEH driver was told by a Ford engineer that if a heavy book on the front edge of the passenger seat doesn't fall off in a stop, you haven't used mechanical brakes. The rear brakes are probably not used at all until the front ones are, or the stability control kicks in. Properly driven and functioning hybrids can be driven over 100,000 miles without brake maintenance. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FusionDiffusion Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 Don't take this personally but the most statistically and functionally likely explanation is that while your Daughter doesn't use the parking brake on a regular basis, she did once, and forgot to release it as she drove off. If you have the e-brake on and you go above a certain speed, the cluster will start dinging at you, so I doubt it was left on. So she would have to be deaf or really stupid to leave it on. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VonoreTn Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 (edited) If you have the e-brake on and you go above a certain speed, the cluster will start dinging at you, so I doubt it was left on. So she would have to be deaf or really stupid to leave it on. I'm not calling anyone stupid, I drove a rental car for a couple of miles not realizing the parking brake was on when I picked it up. I finally saw a dash warning light (dah), and realized that the sluggish performance was already a strong indicator that the parking brake was on. The steel rear wheel rims were so hot at that point I couldn't touch them. What can happen to someone who doesn't use the parking brake regularly is they pick up their car at an auto service facility and don't notice that whoever parked it put the parking brake on. Note that we can't call it an emergency brake anymore for legal conciseness reasons (don't want to overstate it's function). It's probably not a bad idea to try your parking brake while driving in a wide open parking lot at very low speed just to get a feel for how it will stop your car if you ever have to, like if you ever lose your brake fluid for some reason. Don't do it in the snow or ice, or even cold or wet weather, the car could come around on you since it's rear brakes only. Edited February 8, 2012 by VonoreTn 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drolds1 Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 I'm not calling anyone stupid, I drove a rental car for a couple of miles not realizing the parking brake was on when I picked it up. I finally saw a dash warning light (dah), and realized that the sluggish performance was already a strong indicator that the parking brake was on. The steel rear wheel rims were so hot at that point I couldn't touch them. What can happen to someone who doesn't use the parking regularly is they pick up their car at an auto service facility and don't notice that whoever parked it put the parking brake on. Note that we can't call it an emergency brake anymore for legal conciseness reasons (don't want to overstate it's function). It's probably not a bad idea to try your parking brake while driving in a wide open parking lot at very low speed just to get a feel for how it will stop your car if you ever have to, like if you ever lose your brake fluid for some reason. Don't do it in the snow or ice, or even cold or wet weather, the car could come around on you since it's rear brakes only. I don't know about the FFH but in addition to the red warning light, my MKZ has an audible warning chime if the parking brake is left on and you're moving above a certain speed. I think that's what FD meant by the cluster "dinging at you." That would be very hard to ignore. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zack Posted February 8, 2012 Author Share Posted February 8, 2012 OK guys, I appreciate you all trying to help. First of all we don't use parking brake at all, any car. Steel cable might get frozen and brake would stay engaged even if you released a handle in the cabin. So we don't use it, period. For the people who said that their brakes on Ford cars lasted for long time ... I believe you but bill in my hands and mileage counter in FFH tells different story. I will take it to factory rep when I find it on their WEB site, but I don't think that will produce any useful results. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oman Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 (edited) There have been reports of the rear brakes hanging-up and causing excessive wear. This usually caused by lack of heavy occasional braking. Essentially the friction brakes are not used enough so they start to stick. Also, the emergency brakes freeze from not using them, not from using them. It is when you use it for the first time in 5 years that they will jam because they have not been exercised. So it is good to use them once in a while, especially when parking on an incline. If you have ever seen how fragile the parking pin is you would never go near a parked car on an inclined street. Now for the service. If it was just brake shoes they I would say you had a hang-up. Since the dealer appears to have fleeced you (based on the bill for supposedly regular maintenance) I would say they likely lied about everything. If your invoice shows either "Transmission Service" or "CVT Fluid change" you were absolutely ripped-off unless they had proof of a failure or damage. My dealer tried that on my wife and it set off one heck of a firestorm. I was very upset at Ford for not chastising the dealer more than they did, they simply said that they leave it up to the dealer to decide if there are "unusual" maintenance requirements based on observed wear and local conditions. When asked what wear they saw or what unusual conditions warranted $700 of out-of-spec service, the dealer only said that "we like to do this work to assure the customer is satisfied with the vehicle." I'm sure they do. I would love people to give me $100.00 bills for no reason too. If the service is not listed in the manual then make the dealer SHOW YOU THE PROBLEM. Don't buy the "the weather around here is worse than average" or "the roads around here are worse than average" or "the traffic around here is worse than average" B.S. Unless you have a reason to believe that you have unusual service requirements - follow the published schedule. Ford doesn't want your car to wear out fast, really, they don't. What they don't want more than anything else in the world is recalls and warranty repairs. The service schedule is actually pretty conservative already. Ford build good cars but their dealers appear to be taking them down. Jon OK guys, I appreciate you all trying to help. First of all we don't use parking brake at all, any car. Steel cable might get frozen and brake would stay engaged even if you released a handle in the cabin. So we don't use it, period. For the people who said that their brakes on Ford cars lasted for long time ... I believe you but bill in my hands and mileage counter in FFH tells different story. I will take it to factory rep when I find it on their WEB site, but I don't think that will produce any useful results. Edited February 8, 2012 by Oman 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VonoreTn Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 Right on Jon. For those of you who never use your parking brake, remember that the only thing between you and that semi truck that is stopping in front of you is about a cup of brake fluid contained by a bunch of seals and fittings, that is regularly spiked to over 1000 psi. The system is well engineered, but it's a good idea to exercise and understand the backup ability of your "parking" brake. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 Not to mention it's just a good safety practice. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lolder Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 You can see the thickness of the rear brake pads by looking through the wheel "spokes" with a flashlight. If you have a small enough caliper gauge you can even measure them. At 36000 miles, mine measure about 7.9 mm. which is close to the new spec that they've always measured. The rotor is about 9.5 mm. thick so the remaining pad thickness appears slightly less. The pad backing is about 6.35 mm. Total thickness is 6.35 + 7.9 + 9.5+ 7.9 + 6.35 = 38 mm or 1 1/2 inches. The recessed area is the pad thickness so by eye, that thickness is midway between the backing thickness and the rotor thickness. It would be worth everyone's time to quickly look at this. It might save you a lot of money. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dennisw Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 I have not measured my thickness but at 32,000+ they still look like new front and rear. I drive mainly in town with much stop and go driving so I use my brakes plenty. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeff_h Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 (edited) For the people who said that their brakes on Ford cars lasted for long time ... I believe you but bill in my hands and mileage counter in FFH tells different story. I will take it to factory rep when I find it on their WEB site, but I don't think that will produce any useful results. My 2010 FFH now has 108k miles on it, I pulled all wheels at 80k to change the brake pads but all 4 had about 2/3 of the material remaining (and all 4 wearing equally), so the wheels went back on and the new pads are on the shelf in the garage. I am going to change them out at 120k, figure by then it will be time and then I won't have to worry about it for the life of the car (but will keep checking, of course). However this is with driving an average of 130 miles per day and a great deal of that is I-95 and my beloved DC beltway (am now on windshield #3, thank you beltway). So I wonder how much that the daily drive and driving type has to do with this, obviously some but I wonder if it's more than people realize. My wife used to have an Escape Hybrid and I took it for annual inspection when it had less than 40k miles, the shop said it needed rear brakes and I thought sure those crooked S.O.B.s were ripping me off! So I said no that's OK pink tag the inspection and I'll bring it back after I replace the brakes... thinking that the brakes were fine and they would be embarrassed that I called their bluff, etc. So I picked it up and got home and pulled a rear wheel and felt like gomer pyle was standing there yelling "su-priiize su-prize" and those pads were just about down to nothing and there was metal-on-metal on one side but it had just started recently I guess. So I went and got pads and threw them on, took it back to the shop the next day and it passed inspection. So again maybe this difference in driving styles matters more than we think? I am very smooth and steady on acceleration and braking as I want to maximize MPG. My wife likes Casey Kahne and apparently wants to drive like him too. She is pretty tough on the gas and the brakes, and I guess to a greater extent than I realized. So maybe your daughter is a hot-rod-lincoln as well? Edited February 9, 2012 by jeff_h 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lolder Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 You appear to have an exceptionally high mileage FFH driven at highway speeds. If you have any other information I think it would be of high interest here. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rfruth Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 108K miles, wow - ever had a TPMS error ? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lolder Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 I found a site that said the lithium batteries in TPMS sensors had a 10 year life that assumed 1 year ( 10 % ) in motion. At 30 mph X 8700 hours would be about 260,000 miles. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeff_h Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 108K miles, wow - ever had a TPMS error ? Not once had a TPMS error - only had the check engine light at 63k but was still running fine... took to dealer and code said replace oxygen sensor which was total cost with labor under $200 -- so Ford got the better of me on the extended warranty, we tend to have that debate in many threads, but no regrets over buying it. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zack Posted February 11, 2012 Author Share Posted February 11, 2012 (edited) OK, here is a complete bill, just scanned it and please everybody take a look and see how much things cost in Toronto. So car has 66k km (40k miles) and worn out rear brakes are still mystery for me. Unfortunately system won't allow me to post all 3 pages in single file but you will get the idea. Ford_bill_1.pdf Ford_bill_page2.pdf Edited February 11, 2012 by Zack 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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