Jo7hs2 Posted March 17, 2012 Share Posted March 17, 2012 Well, my 2012 Fusion SE I4 developed harsh 1-2 shifts, weak 2-3 shifts, erratic behavior in traffic, and slow engagement out of park over the last few months. Didn't really kick in until the cold weather earlier this winter (at around 5-7k) and then kept getting more noticeable until the other day when I bought it it (at just over 9k). The techs were able to duplicate the issue and applied TSB 12-3-7. It was just described as recalibration, so I'm assuming TSB 12-3-7 is just an extension of 11-11-23 to the 2011-2012 model years. However, I cannot find the TSB anywhere, does anybody know if it is different from 11-11-23? Pardon me if it was already discussed previously...the search function rejected my search for being too short. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ehidle Posted March 17, 2012 Share Posted March 17, 2012 I just recevied an email from Ford Customer Service about this TSB as well. Our car has the opposite temperature dependence. Ours only flares in warm weather, which is more consistent with the valve bore wear theory. Anyway, I'm hoping someone can get their hands on this TSB and post it... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jo7hs2 Posted March 17, 2012 Author Share Posted March 17, 2012 In case it helps, the operation code is different from 11-11-23. Instead of 111123A (reprogram PCM and fluid adjustment) there is an undefined 120307A on my paperwork. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IcyFusion Posted March 18, 2012 Share Posted March 18, 2012 Has this really done anything for the issue since you had it done? I wish I would get these emails... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jo7hs2 Posted March 18, 2012 Author Share Posted March 18, 2012 (edited) I don't know yet...shifting is still odd as it re-learns. It did solve the weird 1-2 shifts, for certain. In fact, the length of time spent in first is now about four times longer than before. Previously, the car would shift out of first almost immediately after starting to roll, now it stays in first a more normal length, if I big shorter still than I'd like. Much smoother, though, as it was jerking at low speeds before. 2-3 is still a bit soft, but it isn't flaring. Engage from park sluggishness is gone. Traffic errata and highway behavior? Unsure. Feels better, but now 3-4 is off a bit on timing, maybe due to the learning process. 4-5 and 5-6 still butter smooth. Edited March 18, 2012 by Jo7hs2 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ehidle Posted March 18, 2012 Share Posted March 18, 2012 (edited) Did they replace the valve body/regulator and clutch packs when they did the TSB? I imagine your 2-3 is still soft for two reasons. First, because the bore and valve are still worn, and second because the 2-3 clutch is probably burned up from 9k of driving at low clutch pressure. I haven't seen the TSB yet, but I know the TSBs for the older model years indicated a transmission load test and replacement of the valve body and clutches. Edited March 18, 2012 by ehidle 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jo7hs2 Posted March 18, 2012 Author Share Posted March 18, 2012 They did not indicate they had. They appear to have just flashed the PCM. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
con_fusion Posted March 19, 2012 Share Posted March 19, 2012 Did they replace the valve body/regulator and clutch packs when they did the TSB? I imagine your 2-3 is still soft for two reasons. First, because the bore and valve are still worn, and second because the 2-3 clutch is probably burned up from 9k of driving at low clutch pressure. I haven't seen the TSB yet, but I know the TSBs for the older model years indicated a transmission load test and replacement of the valve body and clutches. I think only the 2010 vehicles impacted by the 10B15 customer sat program actually had instructions to do a load test and repair if it failed the load test. (I could be wrong) Which was supposed to be a "limited" number with valve bodies prematurely wearing in the regulator bore. Mine was one of those. But even with a new valve body, I got some flares 2->3 almost immediately after the repair. I read the tear down article you referenced in another thread and it's interesting as you noted there was no wear sleeve in the valve body design. You would think that after all the problems they had with the 2009 Escapes/Mariners and then the 2010 Fusions, they would have redesigned the valve body. Maybe not though. The article also mentioned the pump gears being a weak spot too. I wish I could have a do-over. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jo7hs2 Posted March 19, 2012 Author Share Posted March 19, 2012 Yeah, that was my understanding, too. I don't see anything about it in 11-11-23, which covered 2009-2010 Escapes and 2010 Fusions, and I seem to recall the load test being specific to 10B15. So far...2-3 is buttoning up better as I drive it more. It was never very bad to begin with, soft, but no visible flare on the tach, and it wasn't soft more than occasionally, and only at low speeds. 1-2 is almost perfect, and I'd attribute any current complaints to design...ratio is too high, mostly. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IcyFusion Posted March 19, 2012 Share Posted March 19, 2012 I don't know yet...shifting is still odd as it re-learns. It did solve the weird 1-2 shifts, for certain. In fact, the length of time spent in first is now about four times longer than before. Previously, the car would shift out of first almost immediately after starting to roll, now it stays in first a more normal length, if I big shorter still than I'd like. Much smoother, though, as it was jerking at low speeds before. 2-3 is still a bit soft, but it isn't flaring. Engage from park sluggishness is gone. Traffic errata and highway behavior? Unsure. Feels better, but now 3-4 is off a bit on timing, maybe due to the learning process. 4-5 and 5-6 still butter smooth. Well that is definitely a little bit of comforting news for you, and myself. Keep us in the loop as to how it is looking down the road a bit because I may see if my dealer may know anything about this and have this done on mine. My only concern is damage that may still be there as result of not having a fix done sooner... :wacko: I'm also searching for what 120307A may be. I'm suspecting it is probably another type of PCM job. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jo7hs2 Posted March 21, 2012 Author Share Posted March 21, 2012 Bad news... It got colder this morning, and it chunked the 1-2 shift, as before. I'll be on the phone with my dealer ASAP and Ford CS shortly thereafter. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jo7hs2 Posted March 21, 2012 Author Share Posted March 21, 2012 They want to give it another hundred miles or so...we'll see what happens. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IcyFusion Posted March 21, 2012 Share Posted March 21, 2012 Bad news... It got colder this morning, and it chunked the 1-2 shift, as before. I'll be on the phone with my dealer ASAP and Ford CS shortly thereafter. There is the cold weather that ehidle was talking about, mine was more pronounced in cold weather but since then has even just been rough in warm weather. They want to give it another hundred miles or so...we'll see what happens. Was this the dealer or the Ford Regional CS you talked to? Last November I talked to Ford Regional here in the Midwest and they logged the issue in their system but told me the same exact crap that the dealer told me. Which was, "put more confidence in it for a bit, and see if it doesn't correct itself" (i.e. you are crazy)...gee, thanks. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jo7hs2 Posted March 21, 2012 Author Share Posted March 21, 2012 No...my dealer. I'm going to give them the 100 miles they asked for...and it isn't doing it this afternoon. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IcyFusion Posted March 22, 2012 Share Posted March 22, 2012 Spoke with Ford Regional again today and got some info on TSB 12-3-7. He told me 11-11-23 was the original TSB, which was then superseded by 11-11-27 and finally now 12-3-7. Essentially, he said that it was a modified PCM reprogram and when I asked about operation code: 120307A he said that it involved the PCM reprogram but was also a service designation code (whatever that means). Guy was very helpful, but kept telling me about adaptive shift strategy which I kept respectfully disagreeing with because a slip or delayed engagement is not adaptive. Setting up an appointment to have TSB 12-3-7 done this coming Monday and see what happens with it. Last night the transmission slipped for the second time ever, about a 500 RPM drop during the 3rd-4th gear shift and lost power to the wheels momentarily. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
con_fusion Posted March 22, 2012 Share Posted March 22, 2012 Spoke with Ford Regional again today and got some info on TSB 12-3-7. He told me 11-11-23 was the original TSB, which was then superseded by 11-11-27 and finally now 12-3-7. Essentially, he said that it was a modified PCM reprogram and when I asked about operation code: 120307A he said that it involved the PCM reprogram but was also a service designation code (whatever that means). Guy was very helpful, but kept telling me about adaptive shift strategy which I kept respectfully disagreeing with because a slip or delayed engagement is not adaptive. Setting up an appointment to have TSB 12-3-7 done this coming Monday and see what happens with it. Last night the transmission slipped for the second time ever, about a 500 RPM drop during the 3rd-4th gear shift and lost power to the wheels momentarily. Others have mentioned that they've been told a major PCM program update was supposed to be coming in July I think it was. He didn't happen to mention anything about that did he? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jo7hs2 Posted March 22, 2012 Author Share Posted March 22, 2012 I also had a long conversation with a regional CS person from Ford today. First off, she was great, didn't give me any runaround about adaptive programming or anything, didn't try to convince me the TSB was the end-all be-all. She told me that it is just a new PCM flash. She said she wasn't aware of any local issues with 2012 MY cars other than mine, for what it is worth. Just like my dealership, she believed it is happening, which I know has been an issue for others. She is a Fusion (Sport) driver. I managed to get caught in some traffic this afternoon, and there definitely is a dramatic difference from last week. Is it perfect? No. But at this point, today, I cannot say if I feel a problem or just peculiarities in the transmission. Certainly no flared, harsh, or erratic shifts today. I'm going to try and find some stop and go driving on the weekend to give it a good workout, and I'll keep you updated. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IcyFusion Posted March 24, 2012 Share Posted March 24, 2012 (edited) Others have mentioned that they've been told a major PCM program update was supposed to be coming in July I think it was. He didn't happen to mention anything about that did he? Yeah I remember seeing the mention of an update coming this July but forgot to ask him whether or not it was true. I'm supposed to talk to him again after the maintenance on Monday, so I'll try and ask him then. I also had a long conversation with a regional CS person from Ford today. First off, she was great, didn't give me any runaround about adaptive programming or anything, didn't try to convince me the TSB was the end-all be-all. She told me that it is just a new PCM flash. She said she wasn't aware of any local issues with 2012 MY cars other than mine, for what it is worth. Just like my dealership, she believed it is happening, which I know has been an issue for others. She is a Fusion (Sport) driver. I managed to get caught in some traffic this afternoon, and there definitely is a dramatic difference from last week. Is it perfect? No. But at this point, today, I cannot say if I feel a problem or just peculiarities in the transmission. Certainly no flared, harsh, or erratic shifts today. I'm going to try and find some stop and go driving on the weekend to give it a good workout, and I'll keep you updated. At least your representative didn't keep mentioning adapative shift, that was starting to annoy me. As far the local issues go, that may have just been within your reporting region. I need to ask my rep about the STL area and see if there are any others. At least her model has the "right" transmission in it Edited March 24, 2012 by IcyFusion 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jo7hs2 Posted March 24, 2012 Author Share Posted March 24, 2012 Actually, she said she had her Sport checked out because she felt the 1-2 was too harsh, lol. And she did mean in the reporting region. And she was only talking about 2012 cars. Still better today...not perfect...but better. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ehidle Posted March 24, 2012 Share Posted March 24, 2012 Remember, these TSBs do not fix the underlying problem of the regulator valve and bore wearing each other down, causing further and further reductions in clutch pressure. Software cannot fix this. It can only delay the inevitable. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jo7hs2 Posted March 24, 2012 Author Share Posted March 24, 2012 (edited) An update... This morning I drove the vehicle for about two hours in a mix of low-speed suburban and urban driving and on the highway. It was cool, about 50F, this morning. The 1-2 shift remains better, but it is still harsh about 50% of the time, primarily in low-throttle situations. 2-3 remains soft, and I think I'm seeing some flare now. However, it is also marginally less noticeable, compared to before I brought it in, when the car was basically pausing momentarily for the shift. Unfortunately, the PCM update appears to have induced some harshness to the 3-4 and 5-6 shifts after hard acceleration. These noted issues did not improve when the car was warmed up. Absolutely no misbehavior on downshifts, btw. Since I've got enough miles now, I think she's going back to Ford on Monday. Edited March 24, 2012 by Jo7hs2 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IcyFusion Posted March 24, 2012 Share Posted March 24, 2012 Remember, these TSBs do not fix the underlying problem of the regulator valve and bore wearing each other down, causing further and further reductions in clutch pressure. Software cannot fix this. It can only delay the inevitable. Right, but corrective attempts by us let them know that there are problems and show that we aren't joking and getting tired of this crap. We can only hope that there is a recall or a fix involving actual replacement of parts sometime in the near future. All I care about is having this done before the damn warranty is up. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jo7hs2 Posted March 24, 2012 Author Share Posted March 24, 2012 Right, but corrective attempts by us let them know that there are problems and show that we aren't joking and getting tired of this crap. We can only hope that there is a recall or a fix involving actual replacement of parts sometime in the near future. All I care about is having this done before the damn warranty is up. Exactly. And I'll note my dealership didn't suggest anything less serious than a rebuild as an option if this TSB failed. They were actually very honest with me, compared to other people's experiences. The tech said over 90 percent of people were satisfied with the PCM update in the past, but acknowledged a few rebuilds had been required. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ehidle Posted March 24, 2012 Share Posted March 24, 2012 (edited) We had 12-3-7 applied on Monday this past week. It's been sitting at home since then. Today, I drove it and found that not only did this TSB not fix the 2-3 flare at all, but now the "RPM Pause" during acceleration in 3rd gear, which has always been there, is much more profound. Right, but corrective attempts by us let them know that there are problems and show that we aren't joking and getting tired of this crap. We can only hope that there is a recall or a fix involving actual replacement of parts sometime in the near future. All I care about is having this done before the damn warranty is up. The problem with this is that the underlying design is faulty. They can replace parts all day long, and the same failure will occur, because it is the result of incompetent and reckless engineering practice. In the end, you have a valve and bore made out of aluminum, creating a wear surface. Aluminum should NEVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER be a wear surface on ANYTHING. Period. It flakes, pits, and burrs badly with any kind of friction, against any kind of material. Aluminum bicycle wheels are gouged out by RUBBER brake pads. Not even the Sonnex regulator valve is a permanent fix, because the valve body is still aluminum, and will be worn by the valve over time. The fix would be to redesign the valve body with a wear surface, but that is absolutely not an option for Ford at this point because it would mean admitting to the design flaw and having to go bankrupt replacing millions of defective 6F35 valve bodies. Ford will NEVER EVER fix this problem because of this. It is cheaper to deal with a 20% failure rate than a 100% replacement, and that's all there is to it. Do not count on a solution from Ford, ever. All they will do is tweak the software to try to cover it up until the warranty expires. Edited March 24, 2012 by ehidle 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dabige Posted March 24, 2012 Share Posted March 24, 2012 Not even the Sonnex regulator valve is a permanent fix, because the valve body is still aluminum, and will be worn by the valve over time. The fix would be to redesign the valve body with a wear surface, but that is absolutely not an option for Ford at this point because it would mean admitting to the design flaw and having to go bankrupt replacing millions of defective 6F35 valve bodies. Ford will NEVER EVER fix this problem because of this. It is cheaper to deal with a 20% failure rate than a 100% replacement, and that's all there is to it. Do not count on a solution from Ford, ever. All they will do is tweak the software to try to cover it up until the warranty expires. While I cannot disagree with what you said, one still must wonder if this is such a serious design flaw, why any competent company would continue to use the same faulty design? The Fusion isn't the only vehicle that uses this transmission. It doesn't take a PhD in business and engineering to know that you don't continue with a flaw this long and not expect it to bit you in the financial ass sooner or later. While Ford has done some boneheaded things, I cannot believe they're that stupid. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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