6F35 TSB 12-3-7?

[Jo7hs2]

Yup. Minimum of rebuild. No buyback. Extended warranty offered.

[Jo7hs2]

Full rebuild ongoing. Replacing ALL clutches. No other signs of internal damage, just clutch wear. Valve body apparently okay and NOT the source of the problem...thus my current theory is software fault burned up clutches. 4-5 was the worst, but least symptomatic. Then again, I'm getting secondhand from service manager, will follow up later. Car done Wednesday or Thursday, probably.

[Oldguy16]

I'm getting into this kinda late but my experience is similar to everyone's. I have a 2010 and my transmission had what the dealer called "complete catastrophic failure" around 25k miles and I received a new transmission. I'm experiencing all of these hard shifts again, and eventually the car banged and jerked around enough and I went to pass a car, it slammed into a lower gear and wrench light came on and I lost all power. Dealer replaced throttle body and throttle position sensor on the pedal. It actually really helped the problem. I asked the mechanic at the dealer if the throttle body problem would affect the transmission. He said absolutely. If the throttle body and pedal sensor have two different readings, the transmission doesn't know where to shift and thus will bang, shudder etc. Now I played stupid at the dealer asking the question but it is interesting. As soon as I disconnect the battery and it resets the fuel trim, the car bangs less. The notorious 2nd-3rd cold shift has been eliminated. As the car re learns fuel trim it starts to bang again.

 

Also I definitely notice about stop and go traffic, which I use select shift also so it doesn't shift so much. That initial jerk you feel when you let off the gas is engine braking from the fuel being cut off from the engine. That's normal.

 

One more side note. ehidle, I'm taking a long trip this summer, and I'm taking my 92 Econoline with 175k miles because I know it'll make it no problem. I no longer trust this car. Been towed in too many times with this awful transmission. In fact I went up to 3 people at the NY auto show and told them the 6F35 is by far the WORST transmission ever made. Same with the Ford people that came around offering test drives for the new Explorer and Edge ecoboost. Contacted Ford customer service, got the run around. I'm stickin' to my Econoline at this point, sure it gets 13mpg but the 300 I6 and the E4OD will run forever. Who thought a company could go backwards...

[Jo7hs2]

Oldguy16,

 

Very fascinating about the TB!

[Jo7hs2]

Okay, the service rep just talked with their trans tech for me. They think band slippage was at fault in my unit, they are unsure if it was defective from the factory or what. Looking like next week now.

[Jo7hs2]

I owe ehidle a beer. Lol.

 

Regulator valve bore wear led to inadequate clutch pressure, which grenaded the clutches. Based on the early failure, the assumption is of a defective part rather than early wear damage. I'm wondering if, since this was present at < 1k miles and serious by 5k, the valve or bore isn't machined incorrectly on occasion...it just doesn't seem like enough time to wear that bad, even without a wear sleeve...especially since only some cars are impacted.

 

Anyway... New valve body and total rebuild. Looking at next Wednesday, as we are waiting on gaskets.

[Bert]

Thanks for keeping us updated.

[Jo7hs2]

Interesting observation online... The 6F50 also has some similar complaints, again with valve body failures. This one thread is particularly interesting, since there is a service tech commenting on it. It is a few years old.

 

http://www.fordtaurus.net/forums/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=12988&start=75

 

That said, the number of complaints seems to be significantly fewer. I'm wondering if that is due to lower numbers in circulation, or better parts.

Edited April 12, 2012 by Jo7hs2

[IcyFusion]

I'm getting into this kinda late but my experience is similar to everyone's. I have a 2010 and my transmission had what the dealer called "complete catastrophic failure" around 25k miles and I received a new transmission. I'm experiencing all of these hard shifts again, and eventually the car banged and jerked around enough and I went to pass a car, it slammed into a lower gear and wrench light came on and I lost all power. Dealer replaced throttle body and throttle position sensor on the pedal. It actually really helped the problem. I asked the mechanic at the dealer if the throttle body problem would affect the transmission. He said absolutely. If the throttle body and pedal sensor have two different readings, the transmission doesn't know where to shift and thus will bang, shudder etc. Now I played stupid at the dealer asking the question but it is interesting. As soon as I disconnect the battery and it resets the fuel trim, the car bangs less. The notorious 2nd-3rd cold shift has been eliminated. As the car re learns fuel trim it starts to bang again.

 

Also I definitely notice about stop and go traffic, which I use select shift also so it doesn't shift so much. That initial jerk you feel when you let off the gas is engine braking from the fuel being cut off from the engine. That's normal.

 

One more side note. ehidle, I'm taking a long trip this summer, and I'm taking my 92 Econoline with 175k miles because I know it'll make it no problem. I no longer trust this car. Been towed in too many times with this awful transmission. In fact I went up to 3 people at the NY auto show and told them the 6F35 is by far the WORST transmission ever made. Same with the Ford people that came around offering test drives for the new Explorer and Edge ecoboost. Contacted Ford customer service, got the run around. I'm stickin' to my Econoline at this point, sure it gets 13mpg but the 300 I6 and the E4OD will run forever. Who thought a company could go backwards...

 

My thoughts all along have also included the TPS as a source of the problem. I ran through this problem at least 3 times with my '98 Grand Am, I had to personally replace the TPS 3 times in 5 years, my guess was a wire short somewhere that was causing voltages that fried the TPS over time but never had time to wire trace. My shift points were all over the map when the TPS was crapping out, as well as the car literally driving itself (see: scary).

I owe ehidle a beer. Lol.

 

Regulator valve bore wear led to inadequate clutch pressure, which grenaded the clutches. Based on the early failure, the assumption is of a defective part rather than early wear damage. I'm wondering if, since this was present at < 1k miles and serious by 5k, the valve or bore isn't machined incorrectly on occasion...it just doesn't seem like enough time to wear that bad, even without a wear sleeve...especially since only some cars are impacted.

 

Anyway... New valve body and total rebuild. Looking at next Wednesday, as we are waiting on gaskets.

 

Interesting, glad that ehidle pretty much hit it on the head (through extensive research). So now we are thinking that it may be parts that are the culprit instead of just a standard wear (which would apply to ALL vehicles). Wondering if calibration of the machines caused that bore to be larger than it is supposed to be...either way a new valve body is no good; especially with all of the other parts that went down in flames with it.

 

I'm finally finding time to log-in to this site again! Work is keeping me busy, especially when I'm trying to figure this all out. My car really hasn't been as bad, still the pause in 3rd gear but hasn't slipped again. Still feels underpowered sometimes when on the highway and going to pass but that could just be in my imagination going from what I had before.

[Jo7hs2]

Watch out for the feeling of less power on the highway! That was what finally started to freak me out and got me in after the PCM flash...turned out the O/D clutch was demolishing itself.

 

I'm only speculating on the part defect thing. That's what I suspect based on what I'm reading, but I think a software issue could be causing wear on the regulator as an alternative. I don't subscribe to ehidle's aluminum on aliminum explanation of the regulator valve bore wear, but I do now concur the regulator bore is at fault for the shift problems, rather than a shift programming issue.

 

In order of likelihood, I'm thinking bore defect or valve defect in manufacturing, following by lack of a wear sleeve, followed by a software defect causing the regulator valve to wear out. But again, purely speculation.

 

My personal opinion is that Ford has an intermittent issue with tolerances on the bore. The bore wears more quickly due to the lack of a wear sleeve, and the tolerance issue is trashing the bore. This causes a loss of pressure, screwing up clutch engagement, trashing the clutches. The software updates are probably aimed at compensating for the loss of pressure, as I'm betting the wear is self-limited to a certain extent. However... I'm not an engineer. I'm speculating based on a compilation of what I've read and experienced, along with what I've been able to learn about the transmission. I'm probably wrong.

[Jo7hs2]

I was just reading the 10B15 program that related to some of the 2010 Fusions and noticed something interesting...

 

"This calibration will reposition the solenoid regulator valve to eliminate bore wear."

 

A little bell went off in my head... I've been assuming the wear was in the DIAMETER of the regulator valve bore. What if the issue was that the solenoid caused wear at the end of the bore, thus increasing the LENGTH of the bore?

 

That raises two interesting possibilities as a cause:

1) The solenoids were too long. Hence the reprogram to move them slightly in the bore.

2) The software was over-extending the solenoid. Hence the reprogram to move them slightly in the bore.

 

Now, I would have suspected they had it fixed, as the 10B15 program was tied to specific job codes and manufacturing dates...but the impacted 2011-2012 cars suggest otherwise...so why the continuation? Could Ford have stored some older 6F35s for later use? Could it be stored defective parts (ie oversized solenoids) for surge production getting into the parts stream? Could it be a continued software issue? Could it just be a supplier goof? Not sure if we'll know...

Edited April 14, 2012 by Jo7hs2

[Jo7hs2]

I'm still waiting on my car. After major communications issues with the dealership since last week, some yelling, and Ford CS intervention, it turns out the damage is worse than I knew, but the service rep was too lazy to go find out. I had been under the impression we were just waiting on a gasket...nope...turns out they needed MORE clutches. A full rebuild kit with forward clutches, overdrive clutch, and something to do with the final drive later, every single clutch in the transmission has been replaced.

[Jo7hs2]

Ok... Car is done.

 

Turns out the regulator valve appears to have been SPINNING in its bore, hence the wear. This caused low system pressure and low clutch pressure, wearing out the forward and overdrive clutches, along with several other wear items, and led to gear damage in the final drive assembly. The whine came from this gear wear.

 

They are seeing this occasionally...one of their employees has his Escape coming in next week.

 

I'll update in a few hundred miles when the adaptive programming is complete...but it is much better. Still gear whine in 1st, but I think that might be normal. Otherwise, snappy shifts and no sign of slipping.

[Jo7hs2]

Ok...still assessing the repair. Some harshness to 1->2 remains. Suspect normal as one-way clutch operating it was replaced along with the whole valve body. 2->3 still under surveillance. 3-6 shifts flawless again. No evidence of any slipping so far.

 

Ford offered my a 5/100 power train or a 5/75 premium care package. I took the (close to) BTB premium package because I don't plan on taking this car to 100k at this point, and thus as this is free it may save me a lt more. Curiously doesn't cover door handles.

Edited April 30, 2012 by Jo7hs2

[Jo7hs2]

In case anyone is interested, especially for anybody with an out-of-warranty car with similar issues, here is the parts breakdown from my repairs, with costs from Ford's part's website showing the damage.

 

9L8Z-7F465-H (Planetary Gear Assembly) - $177.13

9L8Z-7F342-A (Unspecified Gear) - $53.15

9L8Z-7F343-A (Unspecified Gear) -$69.03

9L8Z-7153-A ("Rebuild Kit") - $269.49

BL8Z-7A100-A (Control Unit - "Valve Body") - $416.67 ($141.67 w/core deposit $275.00)

9L8Z-7G112-A (Differential Bearing Assembly) - $8.47

9L8Z-7G355-A (Bearing Pinion for Above) - $5.48

9L8Z-1177-A (Seal) $7.97

9L8Z1177-BA (Seal) $9.17

9L8Z-7A248-D (Seal Assembly - Oil) - $10.67

TA-30 (Silicone Sealant) $22.57

XT-10-QLVC (ATF) - (9Q used, price for 12 at FordParts.com $77.88).

 

Core Total: $275.00

Parts Subtotal: $879.68

Total: $1,154.68

 

DOES NOT INCLUDE LABOR AS THIS IS A WARRANTY REPAIR. Estimate around $2,500 for a non-warranty repair, total.

 

Also of interest, the diagnostic section of my printout:

"Customer states trans whines in all gears but neutral (read attached letter). Roadtest whine in final drive assy. On coast down 40-20 miles per hour. Slight noise on accel. Ck fluid level ok. Fluid smells burnt. R and R trans for inspection and repair. Metal contamination on filter magnet. Rough gear teeth on final drive carrier and ring gear. Inspect for clutch slppage. Overdrive clutches burnt. Hot spots on forward cluthces. Inspect main control pressure. Regulator valve worn in bore. Valve looks like it has been spinning in the bore. Over hauled trans. Replaced main control and clutches, final drive assmbly. Flushed system."

Edited May 1, 2012 by Jo7hs2

[IcyFusion]

Thanks for the detailed information! How has it been running?

[Jo7hs2]

Better. Still exaggerates 1-2 when cold, and I think it may be too soft on 2-3 at low speeds, but it buttoned back up on all higher shifts. I'm giving it a few thousand miles to see if it needs further work...but right now I do consider it completely safe to drive...couldn't say that before.

[Davidearlcox]

"The problem with this is that the underlying design is faulty. They can replace parts all day long, and the same failure will occur, because it is the result of incompetent and reckless engineering practice. In the end, you have a valve and bore made out of aluminum, creating a wear surface. Aluminum should NEVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER be a wear surface on ANYTHING. Period. It flakes, pits, and burrs badly with any kind of friction, against any kind of material. Aluminum bicycle wheels are gouged out by RUBBER brake pads."

 

Well, on the subject of using aluminum as a wear surface, have you ever heard of a lawn mower engine?

[con_fusion]

About a month ago when my dealer was checking another problem, I asked them to look for any 6F35 updates to address some quirks, cold flares etc.

 

They applied the 12-3-7 TSB to my 2010. My trans was rebuilt about 13K miles ago. My rebuild parts list was not as extensive as the one Jo7hs2 listed above but I did have the valve body replaced and they used the rebuild kit replacing clutches, gaskets, seals.

 

For the most part, I think the TSB helped with some of the quirks but then this morning something strange happened.

 

The car sat over the weekend for 3 days. When I drove it out of the neighborhood this morning, while accelerating it did some kind of "hang" or "pause" when it should have shifted between 1->2 and 2->3. I'm not sure if this is like the RPM pause that ehidle has referred to before.

 

It was different than the usual "flare" and it caught my attention and made me say "WTF was that?" Seems to be related to the car sitting for an extended period of time.

 

I also have a whine noise but that was happening at times before the TSB. I can't tell if it's the trans making noise or the belt tensioner (again).

 

UPDATE - I rechecked my paper work and they have work code 111208A listed for my last PCM update. Seems to be the 11-12-08 TSB. They told me that was the "latest" at least for my 2010. So it doesn't appear to be the 12-3-7 TSB as I first thought.

Edited June 1, 2012 by con_fusion

[slushbox]

Does anybody else have a high-pitched metallic whine? I used to only hear it in 1st gear, but now I hear it throughout until wind noise cancels it out.

 

Edit: It is speed-dependent, not RPM dependent. I'll have them check it out.

 

Sadly, I have this noise as well in my '12 SE V6. Has 6500 miles on it. By the look of your later posts, I'm in for a full-on rebuild <sigh>.

[slushbox]

Yesterday, I had the PCM update applied to my car. But the one listed on my service invoice was 12-04-07, not 12-03-07. On and off for about 1500 miles, I had been expierienceing the same problems you all have been posting. When cold, I was getting a really bad slip/bump between 2nd-3rd and sometimes 3rd-4th. The transmission disengages and the RPMs jump before a hard bump into gear. The slippage was much more pronounced shifting from 2-3 than 3-4. Also, when the engine was warm and I was moving slowly, in stop-go traffic, the car would shudder when shifting from 1st to 2nd at low RPMs. I also got a mechanical whine in the drive gears. Haven't been able to road test the car yet to see how she shifts, but the whine is still there. Sadly, after reading other posts, I expect the whine won't go away until the atx is rebuilt. It looks like even if the patch fixed the shifting issues, I have a larger problem for them. I can only wonder why they didn't notice it.

[Jo7hs2]

A rebuild did not remove my whine, just so you know, just removed it from higher gears. It is still present in 1-3. Apparently, my final drive assembly is noisy, even after they replaced worn gears.

 

However, it solved most of my shift issues, beyond a bumpy 1-2 shift only when cold, generally on the first few 1-2 shifts of a driving session.

Edited June 6, 2012 by Jo7hs2

[slushbox]

Well, I'll see what this 12-04-07 update does. Either way, it looks like I'm going to need an extended warranty. I wonder if the cost of a warranty is from a company other than Ford. If it's disproportionatly high, that may be telling.

[con_fusion]

Does anyone have access to the 12-3-7 or 12-4-7 TSBs? I haven't seen them listed anywhere.

 

Just wondering what MY they cover. Not sure if 2010 is included?

[Jo7hs2]

I asked Ford CS about TSBs and they said they cannot give them out, as they are communication meant only for dealers from Ford. They said ask the dealer. I've seen copies of the 11-11 one and it did cover 2010, so I doubt they dropped it.