Will a Hybrid benefit everyone, or is it mainly for city drivers?

[craigmccormick]

I am a potential FFH buyer in rural Nova Scotia and am trying to find out if the extra cost for Hybrid will be worth it. Hybrids are still rare around here so even the dealers don't know much about them. I often hear "hybrids are only beneficial in the city where you're doing a lot of stop-and-go driving". Is that true?

 

Our typical driving is 8 kms at 70-80 km/h over hilly terrain, then a few kms in town and back again. Once a week add 160 kms on the 4-lane at 110 km/h. Again hilly, but not enough to use the brakes.

 

Is battery performance influenced much by ambient temperature? And how is the cabin heated in the winter - is it only from the coolant when the engine is running like a conventional system?

 

If you think a Hybid is right for me then the next question is, do I buy a used 2010/11 now or wait two years when I can afford a used 2013 plug-in hybrid?

 

Thanks for any advice.

 

Craig

[akirby]

I am a potential FFH buyer in rural Nova Scotia and am trying to find out if the extra cost for Hybrid will be worth it. Hybrids are still rare around here so even the dealers don't know much about them. I often hear "hybrids are only beneficial in the city where you're doing a lot of stop-and-go driving". Is that true?

 

The reason hybrids do better in city/stop-n-go driving is that it turns off the engine when you're stopped and it uses the battery to reduce fuel at low speeds. That's why the new FFH gets 47 mpg city but only 41 on the highway.

 

Compare your current ride's EPA mileage to what you actually get. This will tell you if you're closer to the EPA city, highway or combined mileage. Then compare that to the FFH EPA numbers. This will tell you how much you'll save based on your driving conditions. If you need help with the calculations post the numbers and your annual mileage and we'll help.

 

You should also compare the cost of a new FFH with a 1.6L Ecoboost. The 1.6L EB might be cheaper depending on your driving habits.

 

Is battery performance influenced much by ambient temperature? And how is the cabin heated in the winter - is it only from the coolant when the engine is running like a conventional system?

 

Yes and yes. Cold weather is not good for hybrids.

 

If you think a Hybid is right for me then the next question is, do I buy a used 2010/11 now or wait two years when I can afford a used 2013 plug-in hybrid?

 

Do the same calculation you did for the hybrid but figure the first 20 miles you drive each day uses no fuel. Then add the cost of charging the battery daily to get those 20 miles with no fuel.

[dennisw]

Anyone can benefit from a hybrid, but the biggest saving is at speeds below 47 mph at slow speeds you are able to drive on all electric and your internal combustion engine will be off, not just while stopped. The amount of driving in all electric depends on many things, it is all dependent on how much stored energy you have in your high voltage battery. Temperature alone does not affect this but it does play a huge factor in the energy usage from your HVB. The ICE does produce the heat for the heater the same as a conventional car by using the heated coolant in your engine. The engine coolant has to be hot before you have heat the same as any other car. For the best mileage in cold temps there are a few things you can do to help conserve battery energy so your mileage does not have to decline.

 

I heard a negative add on hybrids last week talking about the amount of time it would take to pay back the premium if you got the advertised mileage, the best return was on an MKZ hybrid at 1 1/2 years payback, they did not have the FFH in this study but it would take longer than the MKZ, because the premium over the SEL is higher than the MKZ premium. There are a few FFH owners that do better than the advertised mileage and the return would be sooner for those individuals. It all boils down to what your preference is and the need to know on hybrids is it all in the driving style and the desire to conserve. My personal preference is I would never go back to non hybrid I like being able to control how much fuel I use.

[Waldo]

Double

Edited April 19, 2012 by Waldo

[Waldo]

I don't think a hybrid is going to pay off for you. Based on what you've posted, your total mileage per years is going to be under 15000kms. So even if the hybrid gives you double the fuel economy of a non-hybrid, you're going to save at most $1000 a year. That makes it probably about a 5 year payoff. But considering your driving pattern, the hybrid isn't likely to give you double the fuel economy. Driving at constant speeds on the highway is going to require the same amount of energy regardless of what kind of powertrain the vehicle has. Currently hybrids don't really provide that energy any more efficiently than a regular engine. They get all their benefits from starting and stopping.

 

I agree with akirby, I think a 1.6EB 2013 Fusion will be just the right vehicle for your drive.

Edited April 18, 2012 by Waldo

[FusionDiffusion]

It sounds like you are only driving about 10 Mm a year, which combined with cold winter temps and sparse brake usage equals a no-go for a hybrid. Stick to a conventional small-displacment engine like the 1.6 or 2.0 L engines in the upcoming 2013 model later this fall.

[mort]

Currently hybrids don't really provide that energy any more efficiently than a regular engine.

Actually, even with the added weight of the battery etc, the Atkinson engine car is more efficient than the non-Atkinson 2.5l.

 

However, a 6 mpg difference makes for a pretty long payback. For gasoline today @ $4.25 in 100,000 miles you'd save about $2300.

-mort

Edited April 18, 2012 by mort

[craigmccormick]

Thanks everyone for the great feedback. I forgot to mention we do about 30,000 Km per year so I think I'll see some savings. I have a chance to buy a 2010 FFH with 150,000km for $12,000 here in Canada. I think that's a good deal, is it? There's not much demand for them here so that's driving the price down. I just want something to get me through a couple years till I can buy a plug-in model. Anyone else have one with that many kms? What find of problems should I expect with this many kms? Ford offers extended warranty for 20,000 for $1700 but I'm not sure if it's worth it. What do you think?...Craig

[dennisw]

Payback in my situation started the minute I drove my FFH off the lot. I was in the market for the Sport package but after driving the hybrid I switched. The sport was going to be $1,500.00 more than the hybrid, and I am getting double the mileage of most Sport owners as to their posts on their mileage, mine is 44.8 mpg since new and would have been around 24 mpg average on the sport, mine has all been money in the bank. It all boils down to which option package you are going for as far as payback if that is your only criteria for going green.

[akirby]

Actually, even with the added weight of the battery etc, the Atkinson engine car is more efficient than the non-Atkinson 2.5l.

 

However, a 6 mpg difference makes for a pretty long payback. For gasoline today @ $4.25 in 100,000 miles you'd save about $2300.

-mort

 

The difference on the 2013 is 41 hwy for the hybrid and 37 for the 1.6L so it's only 4 mpg. But even the EPA highway cycle can use the hybrid battery to improve mpg. Moreso than a long highway drive at a steady speed.

[akirby]

Thanks everyone for the great feedback. I forgot to mention we do about 30,000 Km per year so I think I'll see some savings. I have a chance to buy a 2010 FFH with 150,000km for $12,000 here in Canada. I think that's a good deal, is it? There's not much demand for them here so that's driving the price down. I just want something to get me through a couple years till I can buy a plug-in model. Anyone else have one with that many kms? What find of problems should I expect with this many kms? Ford offers extended warranty for 20,000 for $1700 but I'm not sure if it's worth it. What do you think?...Craig

 

In other words - to heck with the numbers, how can I justify buying a hybrid or plug-in hybrid?

 

If you want one, go for it. If you want to save money, get the 1.6L. It's that simple.

[dogo88]

Thanks everyone for the great feedback. I forgot to mention we do about 30,000 Km per year so I think I'll see some savings. I have a chance to buy a 2010 FFH with 150,000km for $12,000 here in Canada. I think that's a good deal, is it? There's not much demand for them here so that's driving the price down. I just want something to get me through a couple years till I can buy a plug-in model. Anyone else have one with that many kms? What find of problems should I expect with this many kms? Ford offers extended warranty for 20,000 for $1700 but I'm not sure if it's worth it. What do you think?...Craig

 

I went on KBB.COM to look at used prices. Now I don't know where you are getting the car from but if it is a dealer and it's in excellent condition $12k is a good price. If it's from a private seller it's an ok price. I also use my zip code which I would believe raises the price a bit.

 

The $1700 for an extended warranty may be a good investment but you didn't give any details like coverage and deductables. You are getting a used car with 93k miles which is bumping you up to those mileage amounts where thinks start to go. And some of the components aren't cheap.

 

Dan

[CometFlash]

For all of 2010 I owned a 2009 4x4 F-150 and kept track of what I spent on fuel. Feb 2nd of 2011 is when I got my 2011 FFH, so had it 11 months of 2011. If I compare the amount I spent on fuel in 2011 to 2010, I saved about $1,000 exactly. Granted, one month of 2011 was still with my truck, but that's not going to make much difference in that figure. Also, it takes while to get used to how to drive a hybrid for max mpg efficiency. I hope to see a much better savings difference in 2012 compared to 2010 when this year is over. $1,000 isn't much money over a 1-year period. So I think it's true that many people, perhaps myself included, get sucked into the whole hybrid thing thinking they'll be savings tons of money when in fact it really depends on lots of factors, such as how far you travel per year, city vs hwy, etc. I must not drive enough to make much difference, but we'll see what this year brings. I miss my truck a lot, but I'll be keeping my hybrid until they completely remodel the 150 again, and then I'll decide to stick with her or not. But at any rate, depending on the price premium and all that, you may want to look at all options out there, not just hybrids - unless you really want something different because I will say the FFH sure is fun to drive in terms of always watching your foot to keep that MPG as high as you can. I'm back up to 42.1mpg longterm right now, aiming for that high of 44.4mpg longterm I got and maintained last spring/summer/fall. I'd love to have my cake & eat it too someday, e.g. F-150 hybrid http://www.hybridcars.com/news/ford-and-toyota-collaborate-hybrid-truck-technology-30748.html

 

PS I'd go for the Energi myself if buying another Fusion. All my yard equipment like bush trimmers, lawn mower, etc are all rechargeable electric. Not only does it save me money (elec bill much less than what I'd spend on gas), time & hassle from getting fuel, they are also a lot easier on the eardrums too.

[dennisw]

I saved $1,688.00 on the last 12,000 miles fuel usage compared to the 12,000 miles on my V8 Lincoln LS that the FFH replaced.

As for the warranty on the hybrid system it is good to 8yrs 100,000 miles and most the extended coverages do not apply to the hybrid system not even Fords extended plan. There have been many people going far over 100,000 miles with this car and the FEH which shares the hybrid system with no problems.

[akirby]

If you're really serious about the cost savings you have to compare the hybrid to a comparably equipped regular 4 cylinder. On the new Fusion the 1.6L ecoboost gets 26/37 compared to the hybrid 47/41. Given the cost savings on the 1.6L vs. the hybrid it will take a lot longer to pay off.

 

Also - it will take a long time to save enough on a new hybrid to make it less expensive than keeping an older paid off vehicle. Even at $1500/year it would take 20 years to recoup a $30K purchase.

[dennisw]

The whole idea of payback a hybrid is out of hand. How long does it take to payback any car. And since when would the premium be 30,000 over the cost of a 4 cyl Fusion if that is your comparison. You can't with any validity, look at the hybrid option any different than any other option package. This whole payback argument holds no water, you get the option package you want to spend your money on, the only difference is that the hybrid option does have a payback benefit where none of the other option do. If the sport or loaded SEL at $30k plus is what you want then get one if a hybrid at 30k is what you want then you benefit from a fuel savings which can be paid back in 1 year or less. It's crazy to say anyone that paid 30k for a FFH was going to purchase a striped Fusion in the first place, and even crazier to use that at the base point for the comparison.

[akirby]

I'm talking about people who use cost savings as the ONLY reason for buying a hybrid.

 

I have a paid for 06 Fusion. I can keep it and drive it for another 5 years and only pay maintenance. Or I can buy a new FFH which will cost me an ADDITIONAL $30K over the next 5 years (plus interest). Equity in the old car would reduce the $30K so maybe it's only an additional $20K . But it is always cheaper to keep a paid for vehicle than to buy a new one.

 

So now let's say you've decided to go ahead and buy a new Fusion. The 2013 hybrid is a SE model and the SE offers all 3 drivetrains - 1.6L, 2.0L and hybrid. Again, if you're looking for cost savings then you have to consider a comparable 1.6L with 26/37 against the hybrid at 47/41 with the associated hybrid premium. And in that case the hybrid's annual savings is lower because the 1.6L gets great fuel economy and it costs less than the 2.0L.

 

That said - if you're not looking at it strictly for cost savings and you've already decided to buy a Fusion 2.0L anyway, then the hybrid premium is less and the annual fuel savings is higher.

 

And if you just want a hybrid because you want a hybrid then that's perfectly fine. I just hate to see people trying to rationalize buying a hybrid using faulty financial analysis.

 

As an example - I've pretty much decided to buy a new Fusion with the 1.6L for better fuel economy. I only drive 9K miles per year so the difference between the 1.6L and the hybrid for me in terms of annual fuel costs is a savings of $775 with gas at $5/gallon. If it costs me an extra $6K for the hybrid above what I had planned to buy with the 1.6L then it will take 7.5 years to break even.

 

I may still decide to get a hybrid but at least I won't be deluding myself into thinking I'm saving money. And if the factors change (my mileage, cost of gas, price difference) I can re-calculate accurately.

[dennisw]

I understand all the angles of this argument and it only causes people that don't understand to not purchase a hybrid. The word payback should not be in the equation. For most people the word used should be savings. People make buying decisions every day for a new car and most people don't keep a car until it is paid off. The average person always has a payment and normaly buy the most expensive car their budget will allow so buying one that will return the best savings is a wise choice the payment is normally always there anyway.

 

If your car is paid off it is never going to give you a payback to purchase a more efficient car, monthly savings on gas yes but the time it would take to payback the purchase cost will take many many years. This is why I said the whole argument is meaningless.

 

When I bought my FFH I was looking to spend 40k+ for a Taurus, Lincoln, or Fusion sport, but I liked this car more and it happened to be far more efficient and over 10k less, so I guess using the reverse logic my car will totally pay for itself since there would be no payback on the other choices.

 

All this negative payback language only causes people who were in the market anyway to cross the hybrid option off their list. I have driven the 2.5 L Fusion and the difference in the hybrid over it goes far beyond mpg. The hybrid option is worth every penny no matter what argument someone uses, and the hybrid will beat the advertised mpg. You will be hard pressed to beat the advertised mpg in the non hybrid.

[rfruth]

Want to add my 2 1/2 cents worth, no 2013 pricing yet so we'r spitting into the wind (but its fun to guess) if I bought a Mustang I'd spend a few extra grand for a V-8 likewise a another hybrid (or the plug-in Energi) is a no brainer, its fun & the more I drive the more I save (unlike the mustang)

[mort]

On the new Fusion the 1.6L ecoboost gets 26/37 compared to the hybrid 47/41.

You keep sayin' that, but the published numbers I see are still 47/44 for the 2013 hybrid. Now a 7 hwy mpg difference vs 6 for previous years. If you were going to commute like the epa, it's a 21 mpg difference. Also the ecoboost 1.6 will be a premium engine at about $1k over the base 2.5.

-mort

[akirby]

There are lots of reasons to buy a hybrid other than total cost and I would never argue against it.

 

But when someone says they want to buy a Fusion and they want to know which model is cheaper, it would be stupid to say the hybrid is cheaper based solely on fuel economy without also taking into account the difference in cost.

 

What if the hybrid cost $20K more than a non hybrid 1.6L? Would it still be cheaper because it gets better fuel economy?

 

People who only think in terms of monthly payments are blissfully ignorant.

[akirby]

You keep sayin' that, but the published numbers I see are still 47/44 for the 2013 hybrid. Now a 7 hwy mpg difference vs 6 for previous years. If you were going to commute like the epa, it's a 21 mpg difference. Also the ecoboost 1.6 will be a premium engine at about $1k over the base 2.5.

-mort

 

Sorry - you're correct. It's 47/44. You still have to do the calculations. And yes - if you drive like the EPA city then you should use the city values.

 

If there was no premium for the hybrid over the non hybrid I4s then it would be a no brainer. But there isn't and it's not.

 

Do the math for your situation and you decide. Just don't delude yourself in the process.

[dennisw]

Like I said it's not a comparison against the cheapest option just because that car happens to have an I4. And question most people ask is not which car is cheaper. Everyone knows the hybrid option is not cheaper. People need to get off using the cheapest car to hybrid on the higher end, this logic is used to offset stupid thought. People ask will I be able to get the mileage advertised for a hybrid I have never heard it said is it cheaper to buy a hybrid anyone that has been awake for the Last 10 years since hybrids came on the market know the answer to this.

 

And to answer the most asked question the hybrid will do as advertised and it will beat the most economical car in the same brand if the driver is serious about saving. And that is in all conditions winter summer highway city any place or condition the hybrid will save if the driver has any desire to do so. The hybrid has more capability to conserve and it will always give the best return as far as mileage. It's all dependent on the driver, a bad driver in a non hybrid will also have their mpg affected by their desire to waste fuel.

 

The answer is now and will always be that the hybrid will always do better than the non hybrid of its brand for any given driver. If a person wants the best fuel savings they should go with the hybrid option, payback should never enter into the aquatint. If payback is the only issue, then a person should just keep the vehicle they already have and fix it when in need of repair. Because it will more than likely never payback the cost of the new vehicle, unless kept for beyond 10 years, and again for those who want to argue that all depends on the annual mileage driven.

 

So to answer the question again YES any driver with any commute CAN benefit in fuel savings. It is all relative if you are a wasteful driver any car you have will be affected. But the hybrid is far more forgiving when used by wasteful drivers they won't get advertised mpg but they will still be able to beat the non hybrid option on fuel savings, as I said it's all relative.

 

It's a no brainer if you want the option to achieve great savings it will be a hybrid.

[akirby]

It's only a no-brainer if all you care about is your monthly fuel cost and you totally ignore what you had to pay up front.

 

We're talking about 2 drivetrains in the same vehicle - one costs more but saves on fuel costs.

 

You can't spend $4000 to save $2000 and claim you saved money.

[CometFlash]

Does it cost Ford a lot more to manufacture the hybrid compared to the non? I know recently they were selling the Lincoln version for the same price as the non, or something to that effect, to try and boost some sales of the hybrid MKZ. Does it actually cost them a lot more to make the hybrid and/or PHEZ versions, or do they just bump the price since it's a sought-after item in a niche way where those who want one are willing to pony up the extra to have one?