Will a Hybrid benefit everyone, or is it mainly for city drivers?

[akirby]

Does it cost Ford a lot more to manufacture the hybrid compared to the non? I know recently they were selling the Lincoln version for the same price as the non, or something to that effect, to try and boost some sales of the hybrid MKZ. Does it actually cost them a lot more to make the hybrid and/or PHEZ versions, or do they just bump the price since it's a sought-after item in a niche way where those who want one are willing to pony up the extra to have one?

 

The extra cost is the battery pack plus the motor and the transmission is more expensive so yes - it costs Ford more to manufacture the hybrid.

[dennisw]

 

 

 

 

Saving monthly is what I said. If your fuel bill was $300.00 month and went down to $150.00 you are saving money pure and simple math. If you had no car payment and purchased any new car to save monthly fuel cost but in turn acquired a monthly payment then you will not save money monthly, again pure and simple math. This happens no matter what drivetrain option you have.

 

It is a no brainer as far as which car will save the most monthly. My worst tank of gas is better than most 4 cyl Fusion owners best tank of gas. And if a V6 Fusion was on your list before your hybrid purchase you will never come close to the mileage in a V6 that you can get in the hybrid, and the performance difference is not even noticeable when driving the two cars normally.

 

It is now and always will be a no brainer as to which car saves you money in FUEL cost monthly. Get over which car cost more to purchase this is not what I said. There are many cars in this class that cost more and many that cost less it is not relative to which will save money in fuel cost monthly. My last three cars have all had 200,000 miles give or take, so I get my money out of my cars. It is always nice to cut my MONTHLY fuel cost in half and better. And for that matter at 34k miles it has already paid back it's premium and it is all money in my pocket from this point on.

 

And as I stated before, I was going to spend more on my purchase anyway so using your same logic this car started saving me money the minute I signed one the line and drove it home. I saved roughly $7,000.00 dollars.

[akirby]

I get it Dennis. All you care about is the monthly payment and you don't care how much you spend up front to get it.

 

If you've decided to buy a Fusion and your primary goal is to save money you should do the math on the 1.6L EB, 2.5 and the Hybrid based on your driving habits and how long you plan to keep the vehicle.

 

If you just want a hybrid or all you care about is the monthly fuel costs then go buy one.

[dennisw]

I get it Dennis. All you care about is the monthly payment and you don't care how much you spend up front to get it.

 

If you've decided to buy a Fusion and your primary goal is to save money you should do the math on the 1.6L EB, 2.5 and the Hybrid based on your driving habits and how long you plan to keep the vehicle.

 

If you just want a hybrid or all you care about is the monthly fuel costs then go buy one.

 

No you don't get it, not at all. You are failing to see that the purchase of a vehicle is always going to be there for the majority of people and most people will get a car they want, some times fuel economy is number one on their list but most times it is many other things along with it.

 

I also understand many people that do purchase for mileage will sometimes pay thousands more for a car to just get 2-3 mpg more, nothing is ever said about this. But let that same person look at a hybrid that can get 10-15 mpg more at the same higher premium as that car and then all the negative comes out about you will not get your investment back blah, blah, blah. I know the hybrid is not for everyone and some will not get the max mileage on a hybrid due to their driving styles. But the plain facts are, it is possible to achieve far greater mileage in the hybrid than the same comparison vehicle that you want to compare the hybrid to. A non hybrid will get their advertised mileage when driven conservatively but most do not get the numbers you continue to use. For all practical comparison the difference is far greater and many more hybrid owners can get the numbers advertised due to the nature of the hybrid system, more like 20 mpg not the few that are always being used to bash the hybrid. At 10-20 mpg diffenence the amount of time to pay back that 2k investment goes down tremendously in comparison. All I am saying is all this hate bashing by so many is turning many people away from a car that can and will save them monthly FUEL cost.

 

I will take a $200 + monthly fuel savings any day especially since I keep my cars for more than ten years, and yes mine was a good investment and has already returned the premium I paid up front and that happened in less than 33k miles.

 

All I'm saying is to much negative is being preached about hybrid's and the return on the investment. this is keeping many away, that otherwise could have achieved this very same savings. It almost happened to me because my wife had a hard time seeing past this negative bash on hybrids. But I'm proud to say she has seen the return and now the savings and she is sold on her car and a will never go back to non hybrid systems. We have had ours less than three years and the rest of our ownership is money in the bank.

[akirby]

Let's look at my situation - I drive 9000 miles per year and typically get the EPA city mileage rating. On the 2013 Fusion 1.6L EB that's 26 mpg or $1385/year in fuel at $4/gallon. With the hybrid I would get 47 mpg or $766/year - a savings of $619/year. If I have to spend $4K more to get the hybrid then it will take me 6.5 years to break even. If I get rid of the car before then I've actually lost money. For other people the payback could be a lot sooner.

 

Apparently you don't care about how much things actually cost but I do. People who only look at monthly payments usually end up making poor financial decisions. Penny wise - pound foolish. And remember - in this case we're not talking about totally different cars - the only difference is the choice of powertrain.

 

I may buy a Hybrid but at least I won't be deluded into thinking it will save me any money for the first 6.5 years.

 

I'm guessing you're sick and tired of people telling you that you're not saving any money. Just tell them you bought it for the driving experience, lower fuel costs and insurance against higher gas prices in the future. Or just ignore them.

 

I'm done if you are.

[lolder]

Don't forget to include the value of the Smug factor.

[akirby]

Don't forget to include the value of the Smug factor.

 

That's more for the Prius/Volt/Leaf crowd. It's too hard to identify a Fusion or Camry as a hybrid. But yeah....that too.

[dogo88]

And while not a huge $ amount, maintenence costs are lower. Oil changes every 10k miles instead of 3.5-5k, air filter - none, brakes - supposidly we'll get over 100k due to regenerative braking, instead of every 30-35k.

 

As far as vehicle costs, a lot of the comparisons are between the hybrid, which has many added options, and a stripped down I4. Not a fair comparison IF you were going to get those options anyway. Plus the advertised comparison use the top highway mileage which, as has been pointed out, extremely difficult to maintain, and compares it to the hybrid mileage which is way easier to get those numbers.

 

For me, I went from a 99 LeSabre which got 17-20 mpg around town to my FFH which gets 37-39 mpg. So I basically cut my fuel bil in half.

 

Dan

[akirby]

And while not a huge $ amount, maintenence costs are lower. Oil changes every 10k miles instead of 3.5-5k, air filter - none, brakes - supposidly we'll get over 100k due to regenerative braking, instead of every 30-35k.

 

As far as vehicle costs, a lot of the comparisons are between the hybrid, which has many added options, and a stripped down I4. Not a fair comparison IF you were going to get those options anyway. Plus the advertised comparison use the top highway mileage which, as has been pointed out, extremely difficult to maintain, and compares it to the hybrid mileage which is way easier to get those numbers.

 

For me, I went from a 99 LeSabre which got 17-20 mpg around town to my FFH which gets 37-39 mpg. So I basically cut my fuel bil in half.

 

Dan

 

You must compare comparably equipped vehicles if possible. And I think the oil change difference is 7500 vs. 10K but yes, it is somewhat cheaper. Not sure about the air filter though - both vehicles still have an air filter and I assume it's the same one.

[drolds1]

Interestingly, to date only 35% of hybrid owners buy another hybrid when replacing their cars. If you factor out the Prius, it drops to 25%.

 

L.A. Times article.

[lolder]

That was the same rate as for other cars and the Prius which is the poster child of hybrids had a much higher rate.

[rfruth]

It's always struck me as odd when someone pays thousands more for a vehicle with a trailer hitch when they don't even have a trailer but mention a hybrid & they can tell you how far you need to drive to get your money back - wish they would just say cars are a depreciating asset.

[mort]

Not sure about the air filter though - both vehicles still have an air filter and I assume it's the same one.

Ha ha! The hybrid has no air filter to replace. The air cleaner is self cleaning. One of the advantages of Atkinson cycle.

AIR FILTER

Your vehicle is equipped with a long life air filter. The air filter is

designed to last the life of the vehicle. See your authorized dealer or a

qualified technician for replacement. The technician can check the

diagnostics system for the possibility of an excessively dirty air filter.

page 300 - 2010 Fusion Hybrid (hfv)

Owners Guide, 3rd Printing

USA (fus)

-mort

[akirby]

It's always struck me as odd when someone pays thousands more for a vehicle with a trailer hitch when they don't even have a trailer but mention a hybrid & they can tell you how far you need to drive to get your money back - wish they would just say cars are a depreciating asset.

 

People who buy hitches don't go around bragging about how much money they saved by buying it.

[akirby]

Ha ha! The hybrid has no air filter to replace. The air cleaner is self cleaning. One of the advantages of Atkinson cycle.

 

It's not the Atkinson cycle. My son's 2005 Focus also has a lifetime air filter.

 

So that's a $20 savings every 2 years. Check.

[dennisw]

Let's look at my situation - I drive 9000 miles per year and typically get the EPA city mileage rating. On the 2013 Fusion 1.6L EB that's 26 mpg or $1385/year in fuel at $4/gallon. With the hybrid I would get 47 mpg or $766/year - a savings of $619/year. If I have to spend $4K more to get the hybrid then it will take me 6.5 years to break even. If I get rid of the car before then I've actually lost money. For other people the payback could be a lot sooner.

 

Apparently you don't care about how much things actually cost but I do. People who only look at monthly payments usually end up making poor financial decisions. Penny wise - pound foolish. And remember - in this case we're not talking about totally different cars - the only difference is the choice of powertrain.

 

I may buy a Hybrid but at least I won't be deluded into thinking it will save me any money for the first 6.5 years.

 

I'm guessing you're sick and tired of people telling you that you're not saving any money. Just tell them you bought it for the driving experience, lower fuel costs and insurance against higher gas prices in the future. Or just ignore them.

 

I'm done if you are.

 

First off Akirby, I care just as much as anyone about the purchase price. And this post here from you shows how far over your head I am talking. You still don't get it. I will try one more time to give you more knowledge on the subject. You are still stuck on advertised figures which in retrospect have little to do with what is in fact POSSIBLE when you have the choice to drive in a manner to far exceed these mpg figures. As an example at this point on my last fill up my speedo says my average is 52.6 for the last 475 miles driven which have all been in town. When I do fill up in about three more weeks the actual mileage may be lower than the speedo by maybe 2 mpg at tops this will still leave me with an average of 50+ mpg. Take the same car you want to compare and the same in town mileage may be mid 20's possible 30 mpg average this is a much wider spread than you are trying to use. The premium lowers at a much faster rate than you will admit. After the 2-3 years it takes to pay back you are in the black and saving money. If you keep the car 10 yrs or more this adds up to a large amount and in 10 yrs I know the fuel cost will be much higher than $4.00 a gallon.

 

As someone stated that only 40% of hybrid owners buy another hybrid. I would say that is a wise move on their part because if they are already trading in they only lost money on their last purchase since they could not have had the car much more than two years and they wasted their money.

 

The extreme savings can only be accomplished on a hybrid because of the nature of the system. It is there for a person to take advantage of or to squander but they do have a choice.

 

It is not a car to purchase if you are like the average person that goes three years between purchases and I have said this before, it is for long term and the longer the better. Most people now days go 60 month loans and if they keep the car for that period they would have saved after the premium payback at least that amount a second time. To many this is a no brainer, sorry you just don't get it.

[akirby]

When I do fill up in about three more weeks the actual mileage may be lower than the speedo by maybe 2 mpg at tops this will still leave me with an average of 50+ mpg. Take the same car you want to compare and the same in town mileage may be mid 20's possible 30 mpg average this is a much wider spread than you are trying to use.

 

I said 26 mpg vs. 47 mpg - a difference of 21 mpg. You said 50 vs. 30 - a difference of 20. I fail to see how that makes the spread "much wider". In fact it's narrower by 1 mpg.

 

If you have data that shows the FFH drivers consistently get better than EPA mileage then I'll listen. Until then it's just anecdotal evidence. They do the EPA tests for a reason - they're consistent and repeatable and they're not anecdotal.

 

As someone stated that only 40% of hybrid owners buy another hybrid. I would say that is a wise move on their part because if they are already trading in they only lost money on their last purchase since they could not have had the car much more than two years and they wasted their money.

 

Really? They've only been selling hybrids in the U.S. for two years? I bet that's a shock to all those 10 year old Prius owners. Or the 7 yr old Escape hybrid owners. If I were them I'd be demanding my money back.

[jbiz]

These comparisons are a joke. Hybrids are better cars, period, and not just because of the savings in gas mileage.

 

The hybrids use an internal combustion engine less, have fewer moving parts, and have better performance and are often (from my observation) quieter. There is no comparison. They are complete joy to drive and own.

 

So let's just admit hybrids offer more than just MPG savings, they offer a premium experience. This whole thing of MPG Hybrid vs. MPG regular car is totally out of hand and we can all blame the stupid journalists that say something along the lines of:

 

"Don't get the Fusion Hybrid at $30k, get the Ford Focus at $19k because it now offers 41 MPG"... HOW IN THE WORLD IS THAT A COMPARISON???

 

Again, you want a premium experience and to enjoy a technologically advanced vehicle with better performance and efficiency? Get a hybrid.

[dennisw]

 

 

I said 26 mpg vs. 47 mpg - a difference of 21 mpg. You said 50 vs. 30 - a difference of 20. I fail to see how that makes the spread "much wider". In fact it's narrower by 1 mpg.

 

If you have data that shows the FFH drivers consistently get better than EPA mileage then I'll listen. Until then it's just anecdotal evidence. They do the EPA tests for a reason - they're consistent and repeatable and they're not anecdotal.

 

 

 

Really? They've only been selling hybrids in the U.S. for two years? I bet that's a shock to all those 10 year old Prius owners. Or the 7 yr old Escape hybrid owners. If I were them I'd be demanding my money back.

 

Now I see your problem you have a reading problem. I did not say hybrids have only been around for 2yrs I referred to the group the poster said only around 40 % would purchase another hybrid. He singled out the Prius owners already and I'm totally aware of the Escape. I am not bragging about anything, I did not start the hybrid bashing. I am only stating facts to the ignorant that have such a narrow view, and use twisted logic to make their argument which has no merit and is a totally one dimensional and misleading the facts.

 

I also never said there is any group of hybrid owners getting consistently higher than the EPA. I said it is POSSIBLE to get much higher than the advertised mileage with a hybrid. This again is you reading in what you want and taking things out of context. The most bragging I see on this forum about mileage comes from the V6 owners bragging about their high 20's. My whole point is with the hybrid you HAVE the capability to easily get 30 mpg average more than the comparative 4 or 6 cyl Fusion.

 

If i were bragging you would see post talking about my small trips of up to 100 miles with averages of 60 - 70 mpg which I have done on numerous occasions, and to many times to count in town trips in the 80-90's; there now you can say a hybrid owner is bragging. You take Your 20's I'll keep my 50's any day of the week.

[akirby]

Like I said - if you want the hybrid "experience" or your driving habits make it pay off for you or you just like being green then get a hybrid. I have nothing against them. I may buy one myself.

 

But if you're doing it strictly to save money then make sure you know how to do the calculations. I don't think that's unreasonable.

[dennisw]

Like I said - if you want the hybrid "experience" or your driving habits make it pay off for you or you just like being green then get a hybrid. I have nothing against them. I may buy one myself.

 

But if you're doing it strictly to save money then make sure you know how to do the calculations. I don't think that's unreasonable.

 

I totally agree with that statment but I don't remember you ever saying that until now.

 

And from the beginning that has been my whole point, they need to stop bashing the hybrid system with the one single argument that it will never return the premium. Doing this looses people that can truly benefit from all the savings.

 

And I have said this many times, everyone is not going to get return on their investment, but they can easily many times over if they learn to drive wisely. You don't have to be the hold up on the road you just need to learn when and how to maximize.

 

None of these savings can be accomplished if the hybrid driver continues to drive these cars like a normal car. It does have a learning curve and the driver to have a desire to conserve. This can never be more obvious than the woman in California who sued Honda because she did not realize she needed to change her driving style to get the advertized mileage out of her hybrid. A bad FFH hybrid driver probably would not get the advertized mileage, but I'm never going to experiment with that.

 

Again from the start of this thread the answer to the original questions is YES ANYONE can benefit from the hybrid IF they want to save and put a little effort into their driving technique. And to the heart of the whole obstacle you need to keep the car long enough to reap the savings. It's not a car for the people that trade every two three years, at least not at today's gas prices. But I feel that is going to change sooner than people want to believe.

 

 

[dogo88]

Agree with all you have said.

 

"... And I have said this many times, everyone is not going to get return on their investment, but they can easily many times over if they learn to drive wisely. "

 

You can blame this on CR who initially brought this up when hybrids first came out. Then they changed their position and fell in love with the Prius. Since then, almost every article about hybrids has a comparison to the mileage the Prius' gets even though the cars may not be anywhere similar. And for all their testing CR doesn't know how to drive them. They're mileage on FFH is consistently worse then most everybody on this forum.

 

Dan

[lolder]

Edmunds long term 20,000 mile test yielded 32 mpg ! Their 2004 Prius got 42 mpg. The site at:

http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/Find.do?action=sbs&id=26405

show's 38.5 for 42 FFH vehicles.

A lot of these testers are gear-heads and drive that way. They seem to not want to understand how hybrids should be driven. They miss the V 8 growl and wheel spin at launch. Driving aggressively hurts a hybrid much more than a non-hybrid. I expect their response is "we drive them all the same". My response would be, "change" !

[dennisw]

Edmunds long term 20,000 mile test yielded 32 mpg ! Their 2004 Prius got 42 mpg. The site at:

http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/Find.do?action=sbs&id=26405

show's 38.5 for 42 FFH vehicles.

A lot of these testers are gear-heads and drive that way. They seem to not want to understand how hybrids should be driven. They miss the V 8 growl and wheel spin at launch. Driving aggressively hurts a hybrid much more than a non-hybrid. I expect their response is "we drive them all the same". My response would be, "change" !

 

I totally agree with this response to change the habits. Motor Trend also did a long term test I think the mileage was 24,000 miles and they had the average in the 30's. They admitted to being hard drivers, so that shows you can drive it aggressive and still get numbers in the 30 mpg range with no problems. They also said the performance was on par with the V 6 Fusion which shows you can have good performance and also average over 30mpg.

 

The fuel economy. Gov site also shows that the Prius and the FFH are not that far off in terms off overall mileage numbers when driven by owners of the vehicles and not multiple test drivers that want to see what the car will do. If anyone has driven both the Prius and FFH they know that the Fusion is much more willing to be driven aggressively and I'm sure this is why the testers seem to not fair as well in the mileage numbers.

[Waldo]

Again from the start of this thread the answer to the original questions is YES ANYONE can benefit from the hybrid IF they want to save and put a little effort into their driving technique. And to the heart of the whole obstacle you need to keep the car long enough to reap the savings. It's not a car for the people that trade every two three years, at least not at today's gas prices. But I feel that is going to change sooner than people want to believe.

 

Dennis, this is the part you still don't get, you can be the best hybrid driver in the world and get 80mpg on every trip, but if you only drive 100 miles a month, you will never enjoy the financial benefit of a hybrid. The amount of money you spend on gas is a function of 2 factors - the mpg you achieve while driving but also the total number of miles you drive. A hybrid can only control the mpg, it can't change the number of miles you drive. Therefore someone who drives very few miles will never save enough in fuel to pay the premium for the hybrid.