2007 2.3L Catalytic Converter Replacement + Legal Advice

[PoorMans5er]

Hello,

 

I'm just now joining the Ford/Fusion community for the first time, and have a question regarding my purchase of my first Blue Oval. I really like the car, was pleasantly surprised after the test drive - which lead me to take the plunge - and I hope to keep it for years. My question is in 2 parts:

 

1) I bought a used 2007 recently (120k mi, manual, 2.3L) with no warrantee, from a large Ford dealer, and 2 days after getting it home, the CEL came on, and now I need a $1,400 cat + downstream o2 sensor (code 0420; CEL came back after being wiped by AdvanceAuto and was verified by my own scan tool). I did not do a PPI with a separate mechanic (I know, I know, caveat emptor, but I thought Ford parts are cheap, if there is something I can't spot myself I'll take the $200 from the PPI and put it towards the repair), However, the stealership in question did check the car out for me before buying it, and gave me paperwork documenting a multi-point inspection, saying that everything was ok. In this paperwork there is a line that says "inspect catalytic converter" with a green check-mark next to it. Do you guys think I have any legal recourse here? Obviously I can't prove they knew about the problem, and it technically could have happened within the 20-50mi of me owning it (although this is a tiny chance).

 

2) Assuming I'm going to bite the bullet with the dealer fix, they said I could source my own parts to try and keep costs down. Are there any reliable places to get OEM-quality (with a CAT I would only want OEM-quality parts, so I don't go through this again in a couple years) Ford parts? Also, the dealer rep said there are actually 3 cats on the car, wtf? Should I assume they will all be going bad at some point soon, with about $1,000 repair for each one? To their credit, they agreed to "work with me" a bit on the price, however the repair would still run me over $1,000.

 

 

Thanks, and any advice would be appreciated!

 

P.S. I am using the BAFX ELM 327 OBD2 scan tool, which is AWESOME, and I recommend everyone out there get one. It's $25, syncs wirelessly to any smartphone through a free app, and has access to many CPU functions. I brought up the voltages from the upstream and downstream O2 sensors, and watched them fluctuate while the vehicle was on - which helped me verify that I thought the cat was bad before taking it to the stealership.

[akirby]

Your only possible recourse is if you could prove that the dealer knew about the bad catalytic converter and lied to you. And even then a written contract that says no warranty may trump any oral statements. It is entirely possible that the dealer did not know the cat was bad (however unlikely).

 

If you could prove they lied you could maybe leverage that to get them to fix it or help pay for it but I'm not sure you could sue them for it. It's certainly worth a shot.

[FusionDiffusion]

Was it a certified pre-owned car? They come with their own warranty, so you might have some recourse in that case.

 

I don't think you caused the problem in the short time you owned it unless the CEL was flashing while you drove it. The CEL was probably on when the dealer bought it unless the seller cleared the codes right before he gave it up.

 

Your car only has one cylinder bank (V6 has two), so I think it only has two catalytic convertors. The OEM part will be 1000's, but you can buy decent non-OEM parts for much less (100's). If you end up having to pay for it yourself that's what I would do on a car with 120k.

Edited November 13, 2012 by FusionDiffusion

[bbf2530]

Hello,

 

I'm just now joining the Ford/Fusion community for the first time, and have a question regarding my purchase of my first Blue Oval. I really like the car, was pleasantly surprised after the test drive - which lead me to take the plunge - and I hope to keep it for years. My question is in 2 parts:

 

1) I bought a used 2007 recently (120k mi, manual, 2.3L) with no warrantee, from a large Ford dealer, and 2 days after getting it home, the CEL came on, and now I need a $1,400 cat + downstream o2 sensor (code 0420; CEL came back after being wiped by AdvanceAuto and was verified by my own scan tool). I did not do a PPI with a separate mechanic (I know, I know, caveat emptor, but I thought Ford parts are cheap, if there is something I can't spot myself I'll take the $200 from the PPI and put it towards the repair), However, the stealership in question did check the car out for me before buying it, and gave me paperwork documenting a multi-point inspection, saying that everything was ok. In this paperwork there is a line that says "inspect catalytic converter" with a green check-mark next to it. Do you guys think I have any legal recourse here? Obviously I can't prove they knew about the problem, and it technically could have happened within the 20-50mi of me owning it (although this is a tiny chance).

 

2) Assuming I'm going to bite the bullet with the dealer fix, they said I could source my own parts to try and keep costs down. Are there any reliable places to get OEM-quality (with a CAT I would only want OEM-quality parts, so I don't go through this again in a couple years) Ford parts? Also, the dealer rep said there are actually 3 cats on the car, wtf? Should I assume they will all be going bad at some point soon, with about $1,000 repair for each one? To their credit, they agreed to "work with me" a bit on the price, however the repair would still run me over $1,000.

 

 

Thanks, and any advice would be appreciated!

 

P.S. I am using the BAFX ELM 327 OBD2 scan tool, which is AWESOME, and I recommend everyone out there get one. It's $25, syncs wirelessly to any smartphone through a free app, and has access to many CPU functions. I brought up the voltages from the upstream and downstream O2 sensors, and watched them fluctuate while the vehicle was on - which helped me verify that I thought the cat was bad before taking it to the stealership.

 

Hi Poormans. :D In addition to the good advice from akirby and FusionDiffusion - Not sure about DC, but many states have consumer laws safeguarding auto purchases through a registered Dealer. As opposed to buying "as is" from a private seller, the consumer protection rules will often include minimum "buyers remorse" time periods, such as 30 days etc., and or guarantees of driveability etc.. This is especially true regarding emissions equipment such as catalytic converters. I would check the laws in your State for your options, if any.

 

Keep us updated and good luck. :beerchug:

[PoorMans5er]

Your only possible recourse is if you could prove that the dealer knew about the bad catalytic converter and lied to you. And even then a written contract that says no warranty may trump any oral statements. It is entirely possible that the dealer did not know the cat was bad (however unlikely).

 

If you could prove they lied you could maybe leverage that to get them to fix it or help pay for it but I'm not sure you could sue them for it. It's certainly worth a shot.

 

I agree that there is no way to prove they knew about this, and the thought of getting a lawyer alone gives me a headache...I contacted the manager, mentioning the paperwork they gave me in passing, and he offered to cut a couple hundred off the labor, which is more than I expected...

[PoorMans5er]

Was it a certified pre-owned car? They come with their own warranty, so you might have some recourse in that case.

 

I don't think you caused the problem in the short time you owned it unless the CEL was flashing while you drove it. The CEL was probably on when the dealer bought it unless the seller cleared the codes right before he gave it up.

 

Your car only has one cylinder bank (V6 has two), so I think it only has two catalytic convertors. The OEM part will be 1000's, but you can buy decent non-OEM parts for much less (100's). If you end up having to pay for it yourself that's what I would do on a car with 120k.

 

It was definitely not certified now (at 120k); I'm not sure about earlier in its life...if the car has 2 Cats, I wonder how the code (0420) tells me which one its referncing, and does that mean there are 4 o2 sensors?

 

I'll definitely look into cheaper parts, if people on here have had good experience with aftermarket Cats - thanks for the suggestion. Anyone know of a good place to source them?

 

 

 

Hi Poormans. :D In addition to the good advice from akirby and FusionDiffusion - Not sure about DC, but many states have consumer laws safeguarding auto purchases through a registered Dealer. As opposed to buying "as is" from a private seller, the consumer protection rules will often include minimum "buyers remorse" time periods, such as 30 days etc., and or guarantees of driveability etc.. This is especially true regarding emissions equipment such as catalytic converters. I would check the laws in your State for your options, if any.

 

Keep us updated and good luck. :beerchug:

 

Thanks bbf; I guess something like the BBB would be a start? Although I have tried to report something to them before (got food poisoned at Subway!), and got the impression that they can't really do much.

 

 

Thanks for the good advice so far; I'll keep you guys posted.

 

-5er

[FusionDiffusion]

It was definitely not certified now (at 120k); I'm not sure about earlier in its life...if the car has 2 Cats, I wonder how the code (0420) tells me which one its referncing, and does that mean there are 4 o2 sensors?

 

It's always the first cat that's monitored. The second downstream cat is too cool to be monitored by O2 sensors. The first catalyst is integrated into the exhaust manifold, so that's the part that would have to be replaced. When they take the exhaust apart, they should also look at the second cat. If the second cat looks fine and there aren't any chunks in it from the first cat, then you can probably leave it. If you don't pass emissions, then you might have to replace it. Unfortunately I don't see any aftermarket cats that will work (your car is too new), so I think you'll have to stick to the OEM part (MSRP is about $900).

 

So it's up to you whether you want to keep the car and fix it.

[PoorMans5er]

It's always the first cat that's monitored. The second downstream cat is too cool to be monitored by O2 sensors. The first catalyst is integrated into the exhaust manifold, so that's the part that would have to be replaced. When they take the exhaust apart, they should also look at the second cat. If the second cat looks fine and there aren't any chunks in it from the first cat, then you can probably leave it. If you don't pass emissions, then you might have to replace it. Unfortunately I don't see any aftermarket cats that will work (your car is too new), so I think you'll have to stick to the OEM part (MSRP is about $900).

 

So it's up to you whether you want to keep the car and fix it.

 

Thanks for the tips - you're right on about there being 2 cats, with the first one integrated (aka welded permanently to) the exhaust manifold, I talked to a trustworthy indy dealer today who also said there are 3 02 sensors (book-ending the cats and one in between them). Not sure what you meant by "too cold" for the downstream cat - looking quickly at the wiki (I'm "nO" expert, ha), it looks like some types sensors that need heat to work have the heater built right in:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxygen_sensor

 

I like the car otherwise, and it's really clean, so at this point I'm stuck with it and I'll end up paying to repair it...(let the justifications begin)...I bought it for $5,800; this repair will push that total close to $7,000, which is the ~KBB value, so I guess it's ok...(/justification).

 

I'm researching cats now, and there appear to be some aftermarket options for ~$600.

 

-Poor Man

[FusionDiffusion]

Your car will only have three oxygen sensors if it's a PZEV, otherwise it only has two. The exhaust manifold actually has two catalyst "bricks" inside it, and the second downstream sensor is stuck in the small gap between them. If you have the third oxygen sensor, it would be located in the exhaust pipe after the first catalyst set/manifold and right before the flex pipe. The second catalytic convertor is located after the flex pipe under the car.

 

The oxygen sensor heaters do not provide enough heat for the sensors to operate on their own. Their primary function is to warm up the sensors faster than they normally would so the car can enter closed loop operation as soon as possible. The location after the second catalytic convertor is too far away from the engine (about 3-4 feet), so the exhaust environment is too cold to allow for proper sensor operation even with a heater. Hence the reason the second catalytic convertor is not monitored. As you might have guessed, heat is very important for the proper operation of these things, hence the reason everything is moved up as close to the engine as possible.

Edited November 15, 2012 by FusionDiffusion

[PoorMans5er]

Update:

 

The following were the aftermarket options I found, but I decided to go with a factory part, because I want to keep the car for a long time. The stealership quoted me $1,400 for the [first, manifold-integrated] cat, plus gasket & 1 o2 sensor, but offered to do it for $1,000, so I went with that. My local indy dealer couldn't do it for less.

 

Merry Christmas, all.

 

-Poor[er] Man

 

 

 

protech1autoparts: $580

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Ford-Fusion-Catalytic-Converter-Non-CA-FOR20394-/320952680400?fits=Make:Ford|Model:Fusion&hash=item4aba453fd0&item=320952680400&pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&vxp=mtr

texasmotorsfordparts: $670

http://www.texasmotorsfordparts.com/parts/2007/FORD/FUSION/S/?siteid=214462&vehicleid=1434302&diagram=JP06185

forparts.com - NOT LISTED

FordPartsGiant.com: $680, sensor = $50

http://www.fordpartsgiant.com/Page_Product/PartsList.aspx?Vin=3FAHP06Z27R129524&VehicleID=0&CategoryId=1&ModelYear=2007&CatalogueId=249&CatalogueComponentID=1587935&ComponentCode=CDE&MajorGroupComponentID=1588007&GroupComponentID=1956887&SectionComponentID=1597525&VehicleInfo=Ford%20or%20Lincoln%20or%20Mercury,Fusion%20or%20MKZ%20or%20Milan%20or%20Zephyr,&BuildDate=20060907&AttributesOfVin=527,21230,21409,21459,21895,22099,22665,22672,22760,22771,22950,22985,23077,23102,23129,23223,23243,23360,23363,23507,23732,23783,23907,23957,24045,24051,24290,24293,24301,24328,24404,24409,24520,24527,24705,24727,24864,26345,26397,26453,26500,26522,26538,26557,26693,26964,26995,27000,27053,27059,27070,27073,27141,27704,28341,28418,28506,28653,28686,28760,28808,30136,31135,31166,31209,31218,31234,31325,31552,31595,31617,31740,31781,31784,31870,31930,31949,31964,31980,32041,32273,32288,32316,32525,32802,32808,32838,32889,32963,32971,33037,34061,35100,36174,36177,36887,37458,40901,42411,42987,43106,43244,43469,54873,54941,56785,58119&LeftCertainAttribute=&isvinskip=

BlueSpringsFordParts - $640

https://www.bluespringsfordparts.com/oem-ford-parts.html