HIDS STILL FLICKER WITH RELAY HELP!!

[bigreggie221]

MY 55WATT HIDS STILL FLICKER WITH THE RELAY ON TO ANY IDEA WHY ITS DOIN THIS ?IT NOT ALL THE TIME ITS KINDA ON AND OFF THANKS

[MonoxideChild]

Check your grounds. Everytime ive ever had a flicker issues, its been a faulty ground.

[bigreggie221]

Check your grounds. Everytime ive ever had a flicker issues, its been a faulty ground.

thanks il give that a try it doesnt always does it just sometimes

[thefoeyouknow]

Build your own relays, like this, and splice the relay signal feed (ground switched relays) to the blue/white wire at the back of the headlamp switch. Fusion uses FETS in the smart junction box to PWM the low beams so it can control brightness for DRL, this will make your ballasts go nuts, but it can also make the relay kit that came with your HID kit chatter and you still get flicker.

 

Edited January 24, 2013 by thefoeyouknow

[rpoffen]

Build your own relays, like this, and splice the relay signal feed (ground switched relays) to the blue/white wire at the back of the headlamp switch. Fusion uses FETS in the smart junction box to PWM the low beams so it can control brightness for DRL, this will make your ballasts go nuts, but it can also make the relay kit that came with your HID kit chatter and you still get flicker.

FusionHID.jpg

A capacitor across the relay might also work instead of re-wiring if it is indeed due to DRL PWM. Maybe a 10uf to 47uf one would do the trick. Just get the polarity right.

[thefoeyouknow]

You could, but those kits usually come with crappy relays anyway that are all sealed up. Might as well build the relay pack yourself, at least that way you can vouch for it. With the right terminals, you can build the system out inside your underhood fuse box in the empty spots where the MKZ keeps IT'S HID relays and fuses. It's not really that hard once you get the box free enough to turn it upside down.

[rpoffen]

You could, but those kits usually come with crappy relays anyway that are all sealed up. Might as well build the relay pack yourself, at least that way you can vouch for it. With the right terminals, you can build the system out inside your underhood fuse box in the empty spots where the MKZ keeps IT'S HID relays and fuses. It's not really that hard once you get the box free enough to turn it upside down.

I have confirmed, at least on my 2010 Fusion hybrid that the stock headlights ARE modulated, even though it doesn't have DRL's. I am pretty sure that this is the same for all 2010-2012 models. If you leave the engine off, and turn the headlights on, the lights are not modulated and run directly at full battery voltage. Once the engine is started, the headlights drive is modulated at about 40Hz, near as I can tell. I suspect this is done to prolong bulb life and reduce heat dissipation since with the engine running (or in drive mode in a hybrid), the battery voltage runs around 14V to 14.5V to charge the battery. This is about 15% higher than the rated voltage of most bulbs. This problem is certainly not new (running the electrical system at higher voltage), having been present in virtually all vehicles to date, I just suspect Ford did something about it.

This will play havoc with a direct connected HID (no relay), or cause the relay to chatter, which will definitely cause flickering and shortening of relay life. The solution is easy, and that was to put a 22uf capacitor across the relay. Now, I just installed a DDM tuning 55W HID, and having read this forum before, was aware of the reports of problems, so I investigated. With the engine running, my relay buzzes at about 30 to 40Hz, but not with the engine off. The DDM tuning relay kit has two connections to drive the relay from the stock headlight wiring, but only one is required to be connected, so I spliced the capacitor into the other essentially putting it across the relay. The fact that it is separated from the relay by about 4 feet of wire does not matter for such a low frequency.

The system works perfectly, no relay buzz, chatter, or flicker.

While using the free relay spots in the BJB (Battery Junction Box) as suggested by thefoeyouknow might make for a more integrated solution, it also means more invasive wiring, so the installer can decide which way to go.

Edited January 28, 2013 by rpoffen

[thefoeyouknow]

The SJB modulates the low beams at all times during KeyOn operation. Typically, duty cycle is about 95%, during DRL it is much lower. This is a constant in all Fusion vehicles with or without DRL (a matter of programming, nothing else). MKZ, on the other hand will have FET modulated low beams on Halogen cars, but Relay controlled low beams on HID cars.

The Capacitor is a common enough repair, but the HID kit relays are still not very good. You should build your own. I personally like the BJB integration, because its accessible, and kept safe from water and salt as well as extremes of heat, but I can see how it's not for everybody.

[ArthurAK]

The SJB modulates the low beams at all times during KeyOn operation. Typically, duty cycle is about 95%, during DRL it is much lower. This is a constant in all Fusion vehicles with or without DRL (a matter of programming, nothing else). MKZ, on the other hand will have FET modulated low beams on Halogen cars, but Relay controlled low beams on HID cars.

The Capacitor is a common enough repair, but the HID kit relays are still not very good. You should build your own. I personally like the BJB integration, because its accessible, and kept safe from water and salt as well as extremes of heat, but I can see how it's not for everybody.

May you please elaborate?

[thefoeyouknow]

What I'll be doing with mine is adding terminals to the empty relay positions and fuse positions in the underhood fuse box where the MKZ would keep them. To trigger them I'll splice in behind the headlight switch as posted above.

[Lametrain47]

I recently added HID headlights to my car and the company i ordered them from recommended an anti-flicker/warning canceler for an additional 10 dollars. I didn't cancel the warning that comes on every time i start my car but i did stop them from flickering. you can also find these additional anti-flicker devices on amazon or ebay that plug in between the balast and the original headlight wires.

 

If anyone know a way i can stop the headlight warning from coming on it would be a lot of help

[rpoffen]

I recently added HID headlights to my car and the company i ordered them from recommended an anti-flicker/warning canceler for an additional 10 dollars. I didn't cancel the warning that comes on every time i start my car but i did stop them from flickering. you can also find these additional anti-flicker devices on amazon or ebay that plug in between the balast and the original headlight wires.

 

If anyone know a way i can stop the headlight warning from coming on it would be a lot of help

Did you install a relay kit or drive the ballasts directly from the original headlight connector? If you used a relay kit, and the anti-flicker device goes just in front of the ballast, then if the 2007 modulates the signal like the 2010 does, you will eventually wear out your relay.

[Rich196]

Build your own relays, like this, and splice the relay signal feed (ground switched relays) to the blue/white wire at the back of the headlamp switch. Fusion uses FETS in the smart junction box to PWM the low beams so it can control brightness for DRL, this will make your ballasts go nuts, but it can also make the relay kit that came with your HID kit chatter and you still get flicker.

[img=http://www.fordfusionforum.com/public/style_images/zuzuskin/attachicon.gif] FusionHID.jpg

 

Can you tell me what relays you used and also what the relay pin numbers are in your diagram?

[thefoeyouknow]

Just plain square relays. Pin 30, unless you're doing something special, is always high amp source and pin 87 is normally open, so it's your high amp out. Pins 85 and 86 are for the coil, and they're polarity agnostic, so you can hook the ground switch up to either side and constant power up to the other. In this configuration you don't need to use the center pin (87a) if you have one.

[Rich196]

Just plain square relays. Pin 30, unless you're doing something special, is always high amp source and pin 87 is normally open, so it's your high amp out. Pins 85 and 86 are for the coil, and they're polarity agnostic, so you can hook the ground switch up to either side and constant power up to the other. In this configuration you don't need to use the center pin (87a) if you have one.

 

Thanks! I'm having the same problem as all the others with my hids so i'm going to try this route. Any pics of the bjb after installation?

[thefoeyouknow]

I haven't built mine out yet.

[Rich196]

What's your opinion on this relay harness kit? Would it work for what your suggesting be built? I'm not the most talented when it comes to wiring and this seems to be a clean option.

 

http://www.theretrofitsource.com/product_info.php?products_id=166

[thefoeyouknow]

TRS is always the best choice for parts. This is a good set, but it doesn't address PWM compensation. Try them anyway, because if you're not going to build your own, this is probably your best alternative.

[Rich196]

TRS is always the best choice for parts. This is a good set, but it doesn't address PWM compensation. Try them anyway, because if you're not going to build your own, this is probably your best alternative.

 

Couldn't i use these but run the power from the battery box instead of getting the power from the headlight wires?

[thefoeyouknow]

That's exactly what these do, and it insulated the ballasts from the pwm feed, but depending on the properties of the relays, the relays may rapidly switch on and off or "flutter" because the relays are switched by the headlamp power which is, as we have been discussing, modulated. If the relays flutter, you will effectively be transferring the PWM power to the ballasts anyway by a sort of telegraphing effect. TRS may compensate for this in the design of their relays with capacitors, so try them out and report back to us.

[Rich196]

I'll give them a try and see what happens. Thanks for all your help and i'll report back once i have them installed.

[thefoeyouknow]

Apparently people don't search the forum before posting new HID problem threads. In light of this: BUMP.

[rkan]

I'll give them a try and see what happens. Thanks for all your help and i'll report back once i have them installed.

 

Rich196, do you have an update?

[rkan]

I have been searching and searching and gleaning and gleaning the interweb for info on a good reliable HID system for my 2013 Fusion. I have had a back and forth discussion via email with Customer Relations Manager Andrew at The Retrofit Source. I never quite seemed to get my questions answered fully, although Andrew has been very helpful and polite. I will post up my last email to Andrew where I gathered quotes from various sites (mostly this one) that seems to know what they are talking about when it comes to the problems with HIDs on the Fusion.

___________________________________________________________________________

Andrew, thank you for your time on this. There just seems to not be a wealth of information out there on this application, (2013 Ford Fusion) and what there is, is often contradictory. Can you please read the following posts from enthusiast forums and then answer my questions below that.
:

The Fusion's Smart Junction Box will PWM modulate the headlight signal and that plays havoc with most HID systems, even with a relay kit.

rpoffen, on 28 Jan 2013 - 3:48 PM, said:I have confirmed, at least on my 2010 Fusion hybrid that the stock headlights ARE modulated, even though it doesn't have DRL's. I am pretty sure that this is the same for all 2010-2012 models. If you leave the engine off, and turn the headlights on, the lights are not modulated and run directly at full battery voltage. Once the engine is started, the headlights drive is modulated at about 40Hz, near as I can tell. I suspect this is done to prolong bulb life and reduce heat dissipation since with the engine running (or in drive mode in a hybrid), the battery voltage runs around 14V to 14.5V to charge the battery. This is about 15% higher than the rated voltage of most bulbs. This problem is certainly not new (running the electrical system at higher voltage), having been present in virtually all vehicles to date, I just suspect Ford did something about it.

This will play havoc with a direct connected HID (no relay), or cause the relay to chatter, which will definitely cause flickering and shortening of relay life. The solution is easy, and that was to put a 22uf capacitor across the relay. Now, I just installed a DDM tuning 55W HID, and having read this forum before, was aware of the reports of problems, so I investigated. With the engine running, my relay buzzes at about 30 to 40Hz, but not with the engine off. The DDM tuning relay kit has two connections to drive the relay from the stock headlight wiring, but only one is required to be connected, so I spliced the capacitor into the other essentially putting it across the relay. The fact that it is separated from the relay by about 4 feet of wire does not matter for such a low frequency.

The system works perfectly, no relay buzz, chatter, or flicker.

thefoeyouknow, on 28 Jan 2013 - 5:51 PM, said:The SJB modulates the low beams at all times during KeyOn operation. Typically, duty cycle is about 95%, during DRL it is much lower. This is a constant in all Fusion vehicles with or without DRL (a matter of programming, nothing else).

...........That's exactly what these do, and it insulated the ballasts from the pwm feed, but depending on the properties of the relays, the relays may rapidly switch on and off or "flutter" because the relays are switched by the headlamp power which is, as we have been discussing, modulated. If the relays flutter, you will effectively be transferring the PWM power to the ballasts anyway by a sort of telegraphing effect. TRS may compensate for this in the design of their relays with capacitors, so try them out and report back to us.


My questions are:
1. Is this a correct description of how the Fusion (or other modern cars) handles headlight power? If so, does your custom harness (like you put in the new Focus) that you are suggesting compensate for this problem?

2. Is the custom harness is a combination of : (from your website)

Low Beam Relay Harness:
Your factory socket that originally connected to the halogen low beam bulb now switches on a relay. The relay is a switch that draws power from the car battery and sends it out to the ballasts.
and...
Can-Bus Harness:
Simply put, our standalone can-bus harnesses plug draw power directly from the factory outputs and supplies it to the ballasts. They incorporate a resistor to fool the ECU into thinking the original halogen bulbs are still installed (preventing error codes) and also a capacitor, to provide a short burst of current to the ballasts on ignition. Once lit, the ballasts rely on the normal ~12v to operate.
and does it incorporate....
When can-bus harnesses aren't enough:
The best way to battle an incessant flicker problem is installing a 4700uF capacitor in between the positive and ground wire’s on the input line to a normal relay harness. Despite any pulsing signals from the factory harness, the inline capacitor will store a charge and release it smoothly into the relays for uninterrupted operation.
?

Thank you once again for your time.

_______________________________________________________________________________

HIs response:

Thanks for your email! I know the Fusions newer than about 2009 have the wonky wiring that requires the canbus harness on the input of the relay harness to bypass. The factory system is designed to detect when a bulb is out, but when you go to HIDs, it just creates havoc to cooperate with it.

The newer Fusion and a few other cars have more involved systems than your typical Mercedes-Benz or Audi, which we have a simple setup for.

It does not incorporate that large of a capacitor, but should one be necessary, we do have them available in a plug-and-play installation design.

Please let us know what you think or if you have any other questions.

Thanks again Rick!

Andrew @ TRS
______________________________________________________________________________

I dont want to be a pest and email him again, but, am I missing something in his explanation?

I dont think he cleared up whether or not thier harness deals with this problem. I dont want to spend good money on a good kit knowing its only a matter of time before the relay goes out.

 

??

[thefoeyouknow]

I just read up a bit on the latest, I'd say start with the CAN-bus kit. What other parts are you looking to work with? I imagine that TRS's CAN adapters will work well with Morimoto stuff, but if you're running (or plan to run) something else, I'd double up for safety and run the relay harness kit AND the CAN-bus adapters (with the CAN adapters attached to the car and the relays attached to the CAN adapters).